Metro continuing work ?

http://nsmb.com/spoiled-like-hilton-grandchild/

Well said Cam.

A top to bottom flow trail on Seymour would quickly become the most frequently ridden trail in North Van. This is a good thing people.

In the email I received from Mike Mayers he said that the details of their 2016 trail plan would be available on the LSCR website in late fall. They plan to work with the NSMBA and Muddbunnies.

Just reposting what I threw in the comments section of the article.

Nobody likes facts.

Out of 278 trails shown on the North Shore Trail Forks site, 150 are rated black, double black, and proline (triple black?). That's more than half the trails. This doesn't include all the unmapped lines that many ride which can easily be classified as double blacks or harder.

If you look at the Greater Vancouver Area and inlcude the Coast Mountains, the percentage drops to 33%, which is incredible in that we have access to that many challenging trails and the North Shore enjoys a higher percentage of challenging trails within a region known for the best riding in the world.

As someone else said "Variety is the spice of life".

Good explanation of why Upper Dales was "transformed". Thanks.

I've lived in Europe and Eastern Canada, but when I visited Vancouver and Whistler a long time ago I decided this was the place I wanted to live. Been here ever since. Mainly because of the skiing, snowboarding and mountain biking. I still laugh when I'm doing one of those activities AFTER WORK MIDWEEK. I mean… where else in the world… Very few places.

Just reposting what I threw in the comments section of the article.

Nobody likes facts.

Out of 278 trails shown on the North Shore Trail Forks site, 150 are rated black, double black, and proline (triple black?). That's more than half the trails. This doesn't include all the unmapped lines that many ride which can easily be classified as double blacks or harder.

If you look at the Greater Vancouver Area and inlcude the Coast Mountains, the percentage drops to 33%, which is incredible in that we have access to that many challenging trails and the North Shore enjoys a higher percentage of challenging trails within a region known for the best riding in the world.

As someone else said "Variety is the spice of life".

Not certain anybody is arguing we don't have access to likely some of the best biking in the world right at our doorstep. The point might be closer to ensuring it stays that way.

Also take out Cypress which is something like 85% black or double-black and the number drops again.

We do have it very very good indeed. The counterpoint is that losing a challenging trail to make it a berm-fest is not always seen as positive by all and the hope is that the erosion of challenging trails for flow does not become the norm.

What would the reaction be if Boogieman got machined and all technical features removed. By technical features I mean liabilities. Boogieman is a difficult trail that has seen some riders injured over the years. At present the reaction to injury appears to be to remove liabilities, with Lola and Cambodia coming to mind. Not aware of any injuries that might have occurred on Upper Dales, but we definitely lost a fun technical trail to what is now a much easier non tech trail.

Back to Boogieman version 2.0, I am sure it could be remade with a knowledgeable machine operator into a super fun trail, well built to handle loads of traffic too. It would become a longer version of Upper Dales and it would replaced Boogieman as we know it, what would the reaction be. Spoiled Hilton brats or something else.

The worry is with where does it end. Once it is accepted as the norm, will all the technical trails go away, or at least the sanctioned ones.

Also take out Cypress which is something like 85% black or double-black and the number drops again.

Take out Fromme and now Seymour, with 66 mapped trails, has over 50% black trails.

We do have it very very good indeed. The counterpoint is that losing a challenging trail to make it a berm-fest is not always seen as positive by all and the hope is that the erosion of challenging trails for flow does not become the norm.

Unfortunately I'm of the opinion that Seymour and Fromme specifically need both climbing and descending trails from the near tops of the riding areas that will suit a wider range of riders including children.

I believe the plan is to decommission CBC and extend the new upper Dale's in that direction which I feel is a sensible move.

With regards to Boogieman, I would be vocal against major changes to the trail's character since it could be argued that the new machine built trail (whatever it will be called) can draw the beginner riders.

As it stands right now, there is a definitive lack of beginner and intermediate trails that start from the Mushroom lot. The reality is that the current trail systems serve a minor skilled demographic and is exclusive. A strange scenario as cycling gets more popular.

As it stands right now, there is a definitive lack of beginner and intermediate trails that start from the Mushroom lot. The reality is that the current trail systems serve a minor skilled demographic and is exclusive. A strange scenario as cycling gets more popular.

i think it would be hard to find many riders who would argue against that.

what people are concerned about though is loss of trails (a la upper dale's) or significant changes to a trail. i don't see people opposed to new trails that serve less skilled riders and new climbing routes. i think people also want to see proposals for the changes and an opportunity to give input on those proposed changes before they are implemented instead of just showing up one day and finding a section of trail (or entire trail) they liked gone.

what people are concerned about though is loss of trails (a la upper dale's) or significant changes to a trail. i don't see people opposed to new trails that serve less skilled riders and new climbing routes. i think people also want to see proposals for the changes and an opportunity to give input on those proposed changes before they are implemented instead of just showing up one day and finding a section of trail (or entire trail) they liked gone.

Definitely agree with a plan that needs to be shared; sounds like it's coming soon.

My assumption with the trail replacement strategy rather than the addition of new trails is that the plan is resource-based; in that Metro does not have the resources to manage additional trails. Rather, they feel replacing the worst offenders, in this case eroded fall line chunder trails, with new "required" trails.

Again, I agree a plan should be made a shared. My original post was meant to add some reassurance to the naysayers that we have more than our fair share of technical trails.

As it stands right now, there is a definitive lack of beginner and intermediate trails that start from the Mushroom lot. The reality is that the current trail systems serve a minor skilled demographic and is exclusive. A strange scenario as cycling gets more popular.

'xactly!
Rather than a buncha' Expresso/UpperDales/Bobsled clones being built I'd like to see some top to bottom single track in the spirit of say UpperCut/LowerSnake on the shore which to my knowledge don't now exist.
Punish me if'n I'm wrong.

My comment in the article thread.

Yeah, I was quoted in a Mountain Bike Article I feel legit now.
Anyway, the word :"horrible" was definitely too strong a word to use, but when trying to convey an idea over the internet to start a discussion often it is necessary to overstate something so that your feelings are clear. Just as using "Spoiled Brat", might be stronger wording that you feel, but it is a way of saying "you don't know how good you have it". Therefore I will retract my "horrible" statement from the post of several months ago.
Is the trail well built? Yes, and my intentions was not say the workmanship was poor. Is it fun? I'll give it a 6 out of 10. What's my biggest problem, only that the trail does not keep with the feel of the North Shore. Builders on the North Shore have done an great job of building within the natural topography and features of the mountains, this is the only case that I can think of where a machine has been walked in to cut wide swaths, huge berms and deep trenches really altering the natural landscape. I guess I can only compare it to putting a glass and steel skyscraper in the middle of historic low rise brick and mortar part of town, its well built and a beautiful building but changes the vibe of the area. It also came at a time that the landowner had just decommissioned Cambodia, as well, Aftertaste and Lolas were removed the year before and then this is what was built. So is this where the landowner is going? Are we going to see more trails built by machines and older more natural trails decommissioned. As a one off trail I can stop pulling my hair out, but if this is going to become the norm because it is seen as safer more manageable, then I will be pretty disappointed. Will other landowners look at this and say, well that reduces my risk so why don't we do the same thing?
Mightyted - I'm not sure why NSMB.com should be accountable for comments on a bulletin board, or why they should not provide a venue for people to provide their thoughts about mountain bike topics whether positive or negative, I expressed my opinion about a mountain bike topic, others disagreed with me, some agreed with me, and Cam wrote an article about it. All great discussion about mountain bikes and trails on a mountain bike website. If we need to control the message for DNV, Metro and Monica Craver, then maybe NSMB would shut down the forums and just publish mountain bike propaganda.
Anyway thanks for the article Cam, it changed some of my opinion. Oh and by the way since I am a seed of the Hiltons, my mom is gonna buy your mag and shut it down.

As it stands right now, there is a definitive lack of beginner and intermediate trails that start from the Mushroom lot. The reality is that the current trail systems serve a minor skilled demographic and is exclusive. A strange scenario as cycling gets more popular.

But why is it so bad to have a trail network with a steep learning curve? As you pointed out, there are plenty of easier areas in the gvrd. The shore is unique because its challenging. Every trail network doesnt need to be the same. Variety is the spice of life.

Not everyone has access to other networks. I know MTBing is all about $10K carbon enduro bikes on the back of Tacomas according to the Industry, but in the real world, people are often catching rides, using buses, riding etc to get to the goods. I don't see why having a few 'learner' trails is such a big deal.

It also came at a time that the landowner had just decommissioned Cambodia, as well, Aftertaste and Lolas were removed the year before and then this is what was built. So is this where the landowner is going? Are we going to see more trails built by machines and older more natural trails decommissioned. As a one off trail I can stop pulling my hair out.

This is the main issue to me. I think the builders did a good job with the Upper Dales realignment, but it is worrisome that it was done unilaterally and without proper announcement, and I would imagine many fear what's next. MV got this one right, but they have recently done some less favourable things.

I get that there is an aspect of beggars can't be choosers, and having MV allocate resources to trails alleviates strain on volunteer-run initiatives. But in an ideal world, there would be better communication and collaboration between the mountain bike community and MV.

I don't see why having a few 'learner' trails is such a big deal.

as a kid wrangler, i see them as quite important in injecting fresh blood [HTML_REMOVED] sustaining the sport. up until recently, the shore was a fairly crappy place to introduce new riders. improved access (fromme parking), and the new buff trails are big steps forward.