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Live tree cut out on Good Sir Martin

Aug. 20, 2015, 11:38 p.m.
Posts: 1902
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Neither you nor I own the public forest, so unless it is private property, one shouldn't get uptight about others enjoying the outdoors, IMO.

Keep it real, NSMB - you always deliver!

you mean keeping it real like telling someone else how they should feel about changes to their trail work? i'm fine with you saying this wouldn't have bothered you and some seem to feel this is a good attitude to have. i don't necessarily disagree with that, but do you honestly think it's your place to tell the builder how they should feel about it?

the alternative to that is people can go out and do whatever they want to whatever trail they want. is that want we want on the trails?

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ~ Seneca

Aug. 20, 2015, 11:44 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

you mean keeping it real like telling someone else how they should feel about changes to their trail work? i'm fine with you saying this wouldn't have bothered you and some seem to feel this is a good attitude to have. i don't necessarily disagree with that, but do you honestly think it's your place to tell the builder how they should feel about it?

the alternative to that is people can go out and do whatever they want to whatever trail they want. is that want we want on the trails?

Actually, I said calling it vandalism was cute.

I gotta run, I know the NSMB.com crew wants to debate, lynch, and string out a long and heated debate, but you'll have to do that to one another on your pious pedestals. Just as cute.

Aug. 20, 2015, 11:58 p.m.
Posts: 1902
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Actually, I said calling it vandalism was cute.

I gotta run, I know the NSMB.com crew wants to debate, lynch, and string out a long and heated debate, but you'll have to do that to one another on your pious pedestals. Just as cute.

no answer for an honest question so instead you just choose to insult and then run away and hide.

nice.

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ~ Seneca

Aug. 21, 2015, 12:06 a.m.
Posts: 568
Joined: April 7, 2003

OK. As usual this is getting out of hand.

Facts:
Tree was alive and NOT interfering with anyone climbing the trail (or hiking).

Penny and Martin spent a TON of time making sure the trail-side was re-naturalized after building. This meant saving organic matter (loam), sheets of moss, ferns and even the occasional small tree that was on the planned trail route. All this was used once the trail bed was established to bring the forest edge back to the trail.

There is a BIG rock retaining wall on the trail. Most of the trail users will never know or understand how much rock Martin hauled to this spot because after it was finished, Martin and Penny covered a majority of it with moss and ferns so that it doesn't stand out and look "un-natural".

I think they have every right to be upset that a living tree was cut down. Especially one that they felt added to the ambiance and feel of the trail. Yes, they do not "own" the trail. But they are entitled to be hurt and offended when someone makes such a big alteration. And instead of sulking and cursing in the shadows, I think Penny and Martin are well within their rights to make some noise if someone else thinks that their vision of a trail that they had no hand in building needs a change. Perhaps "vandalism" was not the right word, but at least it got noticed.

Aug. 21, 2015, 5:20 a.m.
Posts: 15597
Joined: May 29, 2004

whoa whoa slow down. someone cut a tree down, probably an overzealous volunteer who thought they were helping out. it's not like they closed off an existing trail that's been around for 20+ years then paved over it with something new so that a wider range of mediocre riders could make it down the mountain.

a fucking tree. jesus.

this

Aug. 21, 2015, 6:02 a.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

what has turned mountain bike laming:

- the know-nothings who have never picked up a shovel and only take from the community

- the lame-ass so-called mountain bike media and their obsession with roosting corners and generally riding like douche bags, and the shitbags who lap that shit up

- the entitled butt munchers who must strava every trail they ride and subsequently get shit closed by land managers

so you built a trail and it sucked so much that someone had to come fix it?

apples and oranges. the trail in question is a masterpiece.

no answer for an honest question so instead you just choose to insult and then run away and hide.

nice.

I insulted whom?

Look - it was a tree. It wasn't vandalism. It's public property.

I really don't care what the North Shore trails come to, because of attitudes like yours, NSMBA, grumpy builder, mudhoney, Lee, etc or anyone that wants to publicly shame people when they think they own something they don't. Don't want people to touch your land? Then buy your own land.

Aug. 21, 2015, 6:18 a.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I am starting to think maybe a few need to pop by the Number 5 for a couple of pints and lap dances.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Aug. 21, 2015, 6:40 a.m.
Posts: 5635
Joined: Oct. 28, 2008

what has turned mountain bike laming:

- the know-nothings who have never picked up a shovel and only take from the community

- the lame-ass so-called mountain bike media and their obsession with roosting corners and generally riding like douche bags, and the shitbags who lap that shit up

- the entitled butt munchers who must strava every trail they ride and subsequently get shit closed by land managers

These are all good points and I agree with them but I still think starting a thread over one small tree is not looking at the big picture. It's great the op is so proud of the trail but she's over-reacting. Imo.

Wrong. Always.

Aug. 21, 2015, 7:59 a.m.
Posts: 4841
Joined: May 19, 2003

one mans' feature is another mans' hazard . . .

part of the challenge of living in a free society where we are lucky enough to be able to go out and create trails on land that we don't technically own ( ourselves , as individuals , if you get what i mean ) is having to accept that others might want to share in our vision , even if their " help " is unwanted , or not in line with the original intentions of the " prime " builder .

and sure , it was just one tree , but funny thing about trees : easy to take down , a lot harder to put back up .

personally , i look long and hard at growing things before i decide to make changes that can't be un-changed . sometimes i'll look at them for quite a while before i decide .

having said that , one of my caveats for trails is this : if anything presents an unacceptable hazard to eyes , or head to a lesser degree , it's gotta go . . . aesthetics be damned .

i'm guessing this was the act of a well meaning do-gooder . i'd accept their good intentions and move on .

Aug. 21, 2015, 8:24 a.m.
Posts: 1141
Joined: Dec. 16, 2008

I'd be peeved too. I also kinda liked that tree. Although I'm no trail builder, I had an appreciation for the fact that leaving the tree was intentional.

But, alas, building on public land means your hard work is exposed to the great unwashed. The risks of such "help" being "contributed" to the trail comes with the territory, I guess.

Unfortunate.

Aug. 21, 2015, 8:45 a.m.
Posts: 1885
Joined: Oct. 16, 2005

These are all good points and I agree with them but I still think starting a thread over one small tree is not looking at the big picture. It's great the op is so proud of the trail but she's over-reacting. Imo.

Look at it from the perspective of someone who has invested hundreds of hours into a work. Not "building trails" in general but specifically this one trail.

How many times did the OP walk the line to access the latest project? From the top; from the bottom. Considering every feature (including, undoubtedly, this tree).

It's no different then any artist/craftsman putting a huge amount of hours into something -- something ongoing as it were -- and then having someone come along and modify their work.

Even with the best of intentions, I think it's perfectly understandable why it would "feel" like vandalism. And, I would think/have thought that anyone who has invested a lot of time in creating something would at least have some empathy.

It isn't about having a funeral for a tree. It's about respecting someone's vision/toil.

Mean People SUCK! Nice People SHOVEL!

Trails For All; Trails For Weather

Aug. 21, 2015, 8:53 a.m.
Posts: 141
Joined: July 31, 2009

Maybe the tree should have had a duck with a sign Quack tied to it.

Great work Penny, Martin on the trail. It's a great climb for those multi lap days.

Aug. 21, 2015, 9:27 a.m.
Posts: 1902
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

It isn't about having a funeral for a tree. It's about respecting someone's vision/toil.

Yup. I don't get why people don't want to consider that side of the coin. The builder was understandably frustrated and came here to vent. Even if one doesn't agree with that, considering they put significant effort into creating a resource many will benefit from is necessary to chide them?

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ~ Seneca

Aug. 21, 2015, 9:54 a.m.
Posts: 5731
Joined: June 24, 2003

Lots of good points made here. I assume the cutter thought they were doing good by removing the overhanging tree. I can't fault that intention. I had an ongoing "battle" of sorts at the Schoolboys trail off Lilloet Rd where it crosses the BP. Crossing the road south the trail initially cut across the edge of the road and around a tree and rock. That routing prevented or mitigated water damage from rain water flowing off the road. But trail builders went in and routed the trail straight down and they blocked my line. Water flowed off the road and made a nice drop onto a heap of loose gravel. It was shitty so I rerouted the trail back where it worked better. A gave up after a few months of them
routing the trail in a lousy place and me putting it back. Thing is it was a two way trail and the work the others did created a one way drop.

So I fully understand the frustration of seeing your work altered. However I don't think the people altering "my" trail were vandalizing it. Their vision was just different than mine. If we had the forum back then I would have ranted too.

Debate? Bikes are made for riding not pushing.

Aug. 21, 2015, 10 a.m.
Posts: 1902
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I insulted whom?

the op and the people who chose to defend their stance. in one post you admitted to giving the op flak because you disgreed with the use of the word vandalism.

I gave flak because the original thread title was "Trail Vandalized". That's bad, unlike 'mountain vandalized to make my trail'.

in this post you used a heavy dose of passive aggressiveness and cynicism.

I gotta run, I know the NSMB.com crew wants to debate, lynch, and string out a long and heated debate, but you'll have to do that to one another on your pious pedestals. Just as cute.

that said, i also don't agree with the attitude grumpy builder has shown you. they had no call to attack you the way they did.

Look - it was a tree. It wasn't vandalism. It's public property.

I really don't care what the North Shore trails come to, because of attitudes like yours, NSMBA, grumpy builder, mudhoney, Lee, etc or anyone that wants to publicly shame people when they think they own something they don't. Don't want people to touch your land? Then buy your own land.

the debate really isn't over the tree, it's abut the disrespect shown to the effort of the builder. i also don't see this thread as shaming, but a request saying "please don't mess with my work, ask me if you feel something needs help".

also, you still haven't addressed the question about where do you draw the line with your stance. if for example i feel that the new ramp to drop on trail xyz doesn't flow well am i justified in changing or removing it? how do you measure what's acceptable to change and what isn't?

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ~ Seneca

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