How do you like Expresso (Espresso?)

Expresso was so much fun a few years ago. I would love to see it revamped. LAdies is tonnes of fun but I feel sorry for the trail. It's got to see as much traffic as the rest of the hill combined now.

theres one rock drop on the lower section of espresso that could use a landing. sorry 5+ feet to flat sucks, no matter how "classic" it is. other than that im gonna agree with the masses with leave espresso alone. if you want a smoother trail go ride some of the many available.

I'm not sure that is what 'the masses' are saying. Perhaps a small - and not terribly vocal - minority. I haven't polled the responses but it's certainly no landslide for leaving Expresso to continue being swallowed by the forest. If anything more responses seem to agree that Expresso is due for a makeover.

I'm curious about what 'smoother' trails you are talking about along that flank as well. You could argue that Ladies is smoother between moves but overall I would say it's a more difficult trail. Grannies and Crippler aren't smooth. I avoid Lower Oilcan but it was never smooth either. Pipeline is pretty much down to rock or hardpan for its duration. I wouldn't call it smooth but perhaps slightly smoother than Expresso. Parts of the new Executioner are smoother than Expresso but that brings you down in a different area of the mountain - and it doesn't start off smooth.

The problem with your take on this is that very few riders choose Expresso if they are coming down from the fifth - sixth - leaving the other trails to shoulder the majority of the traffic. This is not sustainable. Each trail's health is intertwined with the trails nearby. If traffic could be spread more evenly - and more trails raised to a decent standard in terms of ride experience and aesthetics (Expresso is a mess to look at imho with multiple lines and indistinct trail edges) this would benefit everyone. Riders would have more choices and trail maintainers would share the burden more evenly.

I'm not really fussed by what course of action it takes to make Expresso come back to life - we certainly could find another trail for Digger to focus on - but I certainly believe the best course of action is to refurbish the once-great Expresso.

I agree Cam that there is certainly not the masses saying that Expresso is great the way it is. But there does seem to be a fair amount that do not want another trail that is super smooth like Ladies.

I have to strongly disagree that Ladies is harder now, I have ridden it a lot over the last few years and before the fix up it was a much harder trail. The gold does give a paving effecet that makes it much smoother and therefore easier, just is. Not discounting the benefits…

For expresso, I would add my name to the list of not wanting a trail with heavy amounts of gold all the way down, not saying that is what Digger would do, but if he did the same overhaul as Ladies then it seems that might be the case?!

I like Expresso as it is for most of the top 2/3, it is the end of the trail after the long steeper loose descent that the trail is shit IMO. The top 2/3 could certainly use love, especially on the wood structures and the odd blow out, but not being able to go mach-10down it is not a bad thing.

Also agree with you that a balance of trail conditions ease the use and spread the abuse around.

For a gold heavy trail Pipline is a better option IMO, as it is more in line with a intermediate trail. That and Lower Oilcan which right now suffers from the same issue of an awful lower section that keeps riders off it…

Bottom line…
Digger is doing great work on the Shore and we are all better off with his massive amount of time and effort that he pours onto the trails, we are truly lucky to have him! So lets keep him happy and working on what ever trail it might be, let him know how much we appreciate his hard work and we all win in the long run!

I have to strongly disagree that Ladies is harder now, I have ridden it a lot over the last few years and before the fix up it was a much harder trail. The gold does give a paving effecet that makes it much smoother and therefore easier, just is. Not discounting the benefits…

Thanks for chiming in with your opinion. I have to say that I would be curious to join a ride with those of you who like Expresso as it is now to see how you approach the ride.

I certainly wasn't saying Ladies is harder now than it was. I was comparing to Expresso and imho the crux moves make it a more difficult trail than Expresso. Which I believe is the way trails should be gauged so riders don't get in over their heads.

I hope to get up there and have a better look at Expresso soon.

Pipeline has builders on it already and as far as I know they are doing a great job - but it's been awhile since I've ridden it. Oilcan drops you too far west for many riders (meaning it won't take traffic away from Ladies, Pipeline, Krinkem etc.) and from my perspective it doesn't have much potential to be a great trail. I've never liked it. I'm not sure what the permit situation on it is though.

I would bet a pretty large chunk of cash that Expresso post Digger would be much more fun than it is now. Not to mention that fact that Digger's first concern is always drainage so sustainability would improve. As I recall there were some sections of Expresso that were beginning to resemble creek bed.

I miss read your post Cam, sorry, did not pick up the 'ladies is harder than expresso' read it as I commented. You are right, ladies is harder then expresso…

I think for me what this comes down to is - there is a need for many different styles of trails. If you weight trails into roughly 2 groups, fast or technical. Ladies was the latter and now it is more leaning towards speed. You can certainly rip it now compared to before. I enjoy the new trail, but miss the challenge of picking lines and really have to dial the trail to get all of it. Thats a challenge i enjoy when i ride, and i accept it is not for everyone.

Expresso has that tech aspect to a certain degree on the top portion, again the bottom is crap (IMO, others may love it…), if the bottom was smoothed out it would be a huge improvement. And that is the style of the lower section, a fast rip. What I would miss is the parts in the upper section where there is technical spots to bite into.

When I choose to not ride Expresso, it is always due to the end of the trail, never the beginning. i find the trail feels like a rip off when you waste elevation for the last half just picking through blown out crap. So yes work is needed.

And that tech is what was lost for me on Ladies, there were tricky bits that were removed and smoothed out. Not the blown out crap in the straight sections, just the odd tricky gems along the way.

So for Expresso, the call of 'leave it alone' most likely lies more in the perspective of don't use too much gold and make it into a speed track by losing the knar…

IMO I do think the trail needs love, it is in poor shape right now and suffers from neglect. I just would not want to see it lose to much of its original feel

The extreme fear would be if all the trails became like Bobsled (in the paved respect), a super fun trail, but not what every trail should be like on Fromme. (not saying that is the plan, i know it isn't)

Variety is good, and not everyone will be please all of the time…

My request would be the smoothed out trails be pushed more towards the intermediate ones or the reclaimed lines. Pile of Rocks, DD, Pipeliine, Griffen, 7th, Leppard, Krankum, these all seem like good options for flow trails

I can't see Digger doing another Ladies. He's put around 4,000 hrs into Ladies and made it his pet project. I personally would like to see Espresso done the same way we are doing Dales. Basically cleaning up the lines and making it more sustainable with increased flow.

I agree Jerry, that would be the best approach.

Allowing for the time so he can put his knowledge and skill to multiple trails would have a greater overall benefit.

…buffing Dales, Lower ladies, Skull, etc…

Yes redo Esspresso it has a great flow line and tons of potential. Smoothing out a trail is what most people want. The shore used to be smooth. Actually riding on dirt is a good thing. Rocks and roots are getting old and I am not getting any younger.

Yes redo Esspresso it has a great flow line and tons of potential. Smoothing out a trail is what most people want. The shore used to be smooth. Actually riding on dirt is a good thing. Rocks and roots are getting old and I am not getting any younger.

Couldn't disagree with you more. I like the tech gnar rooty sections. It's what makes the shore the shore. The "flow" fad is getting a little overwhelming to me. I can understand a flowy trail for beginners, but the shore has been come to be known as a place to test your riding abilities.

Don't worry, you can't take out the tech gnar, it will always be part of the Shore, and I don't think anyone is proposing to. To me it makes sense to revitalize the neglected, rutted, eroded, clapped out, braided sections, doesn't mean making it easy, just bringing it back to what it was. Expresso used to be dirt by the way, before it all washed away.
But there's no way you're riding all the wood-its in such a state of neglect its a hazard/unrideable. Or maybe you are?

In my opinion, neglect shouldn't be a badge of honour and shouldn't be a gauge for gnarly.

I concur. I really don't get why blown out, rutted shit equals cool. To each their own I guess.

I don't think it does equal cool anymore, but some people seem to have no problems riding it. Maybe they are just super-skilled? With Espresso I think if we were to fix the woodwork, clean up the loose rocks and gravel, fix the drainage and close the braids, most people would be happy with it. Using a lot of gold dirt would be controversial. Wasn't it a "loam" surface originally? And there is no way to replace that, right?

As much as I love surviving the worn-out, deeply rutted sections on Expresso, it's not sustainable and needs serious work.

Expresso was much more fun and appropriate when there were fewer riders. It's going to need work unless someone culls the herd. :007:

It's going to need work unless someone culls the herd. :007:

this would solve a lot of problems

any news on 2012 plans?

this would solve a lot of problems

any news on 2012 plans?

Panji traps on bobsled. Initial estimates are that it will cut the ridership on fromme by 1/2 within a week.:lol: