Grumpy Old Schoolers

Figured that title would get the right and wrong people to the thread.

In a previous thread that was really all about two sides who disagree and will never agree (much like I'm sure the teachers strike thread was/is) a simple idea was mentioned and only 2 others commented on it (instead the thread went into more snipping at each other) that I've now pushed to NSMBA. This thread is to ask what others outside of NSMBA think of such a proposal.

The proposal is simply this: Given that there is a strong minority of riders who enjoy the old school technical trails, would it make sense to have a subgroup/group within NSMBA with a director to monitor, maintain, and be a focal point for such people/trails? This would give old schoolers someone within NSMBA who would have a list of trails that will be maintained with specific guidelines to remain at a certain technical old school. It might help diffuse the situation.

Any POSITIVE solutions, feedback, etc are always good but lets try to avoid the usual banter.

I'm a grumpy old schooler with 22 years of loving mountain biking more than anything. I've been XC, then progressed through the growth of freeride (riser bars, Roach pads, Maguras and Z1's on Kona hardtails anyone?) and back to fairly aggressive XC but I'm not a regular shore rider (I live in Victoria) so take my input for whatever you think it's worth.

It seems to me that the tight, rough, steep, old-school lines may be incompatible with official management. Once things are legitimized aspects like sustainability, liability, access, durability (as it differs from sustainability) and limited resources come into play. For example: the resources of an organization are limited, and fall-line, lumpy, rocky trails will inevitably require more upkeep than a side-hill, properly-sloped and drained bermfest. Where do your time and dollars go - and in particular, if you're lucky enough to receive some public support (ie: municipal (our) dollars), how do you justify to your funding source spending more and maintaining less?

I'm not trying to be a bummer here, and I hope that there is a way to accommodate everyone on legitimate trails, but the "old-school gnar", in my experience, is generally put in by the folks pushing the sport/trail network, and the legitimizing comes later, and with compromises that attempt to address the issues I mentioned above, and more.

As an example in my area we had Highlands and The Dump as our primary riding spots. Highlands was lost to Bear Mountain, and The Dump was eventually legitimized. The terrain in The Dump is by it's nature quite rough and rocky, so many of the new-school trails are still pretty rough(ish) but they're definitely being smoothed, bermed and buffed ("dumbed down" if you want to use provocative language). It's pretty much the fate of all the trails there, but meanwhile a bunch of folks have been putting in a LOT of new trail in the surrounding area, all of it illegal, and much of it old-school rough. Some of it has been hidden for as long as possible, and some of it has been blown right open (Dan's trail book, Strava, crossings with major hiking trails, word-of-mouth etc. will do that), and the network of "rogue" trails as expanded even further in response. Some of these trails (Partridge Hills, Gowland Todd, Harbourview for example) are on their way to being legitimized, and I wouldn't be surprised if they get the same treatment once the land managers and official groups are involved, and the cycle will continue.

I wish you good luck, official gnar is a laudable goal and I hope you find a way to make it happen. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but till then I'll be poking around in the bushes when I want to find the gnar lines, and gettin' while the gettin's good. And then lovin' the berms when the come. :)

edit: Holy long post Batman! tl;dr version: Maybe old-school gnar isn't compatible with official status, I hope ya'll can find a way to make it happen.

As a former director from the NSMBA let me let you in on a little secret. They are a very open group with no hidden agenda. In fact the NSMBA is comprised primarily of a very small group of very hard working volunteers that do everything they can do to meet the wide variety of concerns from all aspects of the North Shore Biking community.

There is no one saying that what you want here isn't an option. Generally if there is anything that you wish the NSMBA was doing but isn't it isn't because they don't want to. It's more likely that there isn't anyone that has the time outside of their regular 9-5 job and family life to handle more. Sometimes what you wish the NSMBA is doing is something that a lot of the NSMBA directors wish they were doing also. I can't count the amount of conversations we had where we said "Wouldn't it be great if we could…" but sadly no one had the time. In the past 2 years I'm so impressed with how much is getting done because of the increase in volunteers. It was only a few years ago that the organization almost disappeared. It was only with the perseverance of people like Mathew Bond and Mark Wood amongst others that it has survived and grown into the world class trails organization that you see now.

I'll let you in on another secret. If you contact them directly instead of just calling them out on the internet it's amazing how open they are to your help. In fact they might even be down right excited about it.

Contact the NSMBA here

Check out their Volunteer page here

If you're really interested in being a integral part of the future of the North Shore then ask to sit in on board of director's meeting and see what the happens first hand. Fresh blood in the organization is what will help it continue into the future and make sure that represents all interests on the Shore.

I already did this (emailed NSMBA) - I was looking for opinions after the fact. They haven't had time to respond.

tashi - I would point out that the number of riders who would/can ride the old school trails would be much smaller than those who do/can ride the TAP trails by a very large magnitude thus the maintenance would be much smaller. And when the rains come again those old school trails get even less riding. I would venture a guess that the new trails with the volume of riders and length of riding year will therefore require the same amount or more to maintain them as the old school trails.

As to your other points - perhaps the district won't support them and they all must compile to the new grade limits, lack of roots, structures and rock gardens etc. I don't know the current politics. NSMBA may or may not know how far they can push the district but its worth trying rather than complaining or simply giving up.

tashi - I would point out that the number of riders who would/can ride the old school trails would be much smaller than those who do/can ride the TAP trails by a very large magnitude thus the maintenance would be much smaller…

The flip side of this is that the efforts serve fewer people, are are therefore harder for the powers-to-be to justify.

Again, I support your quest. Good luck.

I am writing a MTB Cypress Stewards for Advanced Trails Position Statement. In it I describe generally the evolution of the sport, how that has impacted riding styles, and thus trail design, and I tie this together to the terrain of the mountain slope and differentiate Old School and New School.

I am writing this for the District of West Vancouver. Here are some excerpts that I think are timely to this conversation. Please provide constructive comments to me directly at gberg at mtbcypress.ca and remark here.

Excerpts:

[INDENT]Advanced trails must exist and be maintained inside a trail management context that realizes the terrain of Cypress is a form that dictates the inherent trail difficulty. “Standardized Management Practices” as documented in literature such as “Managing Mountain Biking, IMBA’s Guide to Providing Great Riding” (International Mountain Biking Association, 2007) speak toward a terrain context that is vastly different than the reality of the terrain found on Cypress.

Understanding the unique aspects of Cypress’ terrain, riding styles and trends, and the current rider experience level will assist the audience in assessing the options within their decision making realities.

Important considerations at this pre-planning stage of the Upper Lands Communities and the launch of the DWV Park’s Trail Master Plan process are to understand the nature of the sport, and how the sport’s trends will interface with the terrain realities- and therefore the existing trails- including erosion and maintenance mitigation; trail interconnectedness from a rider perspective; and the interfacing of advanced trails within the community planning and development plans.[/INDENT]

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[INDENT]In the context of the North Shore experience builders built the early trails that spawned much of the Freeride attitude, and the subsequent equipment engineering. Freeride by definition does not always mean ladders and skinnies, though they could be included. Freeride could include peddling up to a trail, or it could involve using a car or truck to “shuttle” to the top of the road where trails start for a Downhill gravity fed experience. So it is important to understand the context when these terms are used.

Most, if not all, bicycle company’s in the past have done product testing on the North Shore mainly since the terrain is such that it abuses and stresses the components the most in the least amount of time. The initial trails created during that time were trails focused on slower paced Technical skills approach, within the mountain bike engineering capabilities of the time:

[INDENT]“Historically, most of the trails we’ve ridden were far from homogenized because they weren’t designed with mountain bikes in mind. Mountain biking as we know it didn’t exist before the 1980s and didn’t gain widespread popularity until the 1990s” (Fisch, 2013)

“As mountain biking has grown, so have our skills as bikers; combine that with the improvements in technology, and there’s very little which can’t be ridden.” (Fisch, 2013)[/INDENT]

These early trails on the North Shore are generally described as “Old School” trails: steep, rocky, and possibly North Shore style of ladders and skinnies. There was a large degree of technical skill involved to “ride” these trails. Over time, as mountain biking grew in popularity, and the engineering and suspension technologies adapted which allowed more and more difficult terrain to be ridden, it was inevitable that there would become a time where there would be a standardization, or homogenization, of trails as the sport expanded into the mainstream:

[INDENT]“Now that mountain biking has a large, and growing, following, some new trails are being designed specifically for mountain biking. This usually means a certain grade, curves of a certain shape, often including berms, and routing over certain obstacles, but around other obstacles. Many of these new trails end up being very similar to each other. This doesn’t just pertain to new trails; as older trails require reroutes, the replacement sections often take on this “standard” character.” (Fisch, 2013)[/INDENT]

This trail typology is typically described as Flow as the character of the trail is focused on sustained movement of the bike over time. One analogy is to think of it as a bobsleigh track for bikes in amongst the trees on dirt and rock.

As the Flow trails occurred after the initial Technical “Old School” type trails the flow trails are now commonly described as “New School”:

[INDENT]“While it can be great fun to hit a purpose-built mountain bike trail specially designed to maximize and maintain flow, there’s a special satisfaction that comes with cleaning that craggy old bike-hostile trail with the inconvenient root garden and the super-tight, v-shaped switchbacks with rock drops right at the crux of the turns. I believe eliminating the latter and replacing it with the former chips away at an important part of the soul of our sport.” (Fisch, 2013)[/INDENT]

An example of Fisch’s craggy old bike-hostile trail described above is found on Cypress and is called “S[HTML_REMOVED]M.”

Presently there exists on the North Shore mountains examples of each trail style type:

• Technical “Old School” trails;
• Flow “New School” trails.[/INDENT]

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[INDENT]The North Shore has three main destination mountains for biking: Fromme, Seymour, and Cypress. Each mountain has unique terrain and mountain biking trail experiences. The North Shore is one of the few places in the world in such close proximity to a population base providing such a range of varying terrain and difficulty levels. This is why the North Shore of Vancouver is known internationally and revered by many as being a destination to ride on the way to or from Whistler.

Not all trails share the necessary terrain required for a technical “Old School” trail, or vice versa for a flow “New School” trail, based on the inherited original terrain underneath the trail, as this is more generally dictated by the geography of the mountain slope itself.

The technical “Old School” trails are typically the current unsanctioned, somewhat unmaintained, trails in existence. They, by their nature, tend to be the last vestiges of advanced terrain unsuitable for the wider, more moderately skilled, average riders of mountain bikes. Within the Vancouver area most of these trails now exist only on Cypress mainly due to the advanced terrain realities of that mountain slope.

The flow “New School” trails are typically the types of trails that have been newly built within the last five years, or modified into existing older trails where possible, ex. “Espresso” on Fromme. The terrain realities on Fromme and Seymour differ to that of Cypress- the terrain found on these two mountain slopes to the east is arguably more moderate and favor a more flow “New School” trail system.

The more moderate the original terrain, the more moderate the rider experience and skill that is required to ride the trail- all things equal. The more moderate the rider experience necessary for a trail, the more rider volume. Think of a normal Bell Curve within Grade School, you have the majority of riders at a certain “level”.

The trail type desired- technical “Old School” or flow “New School”- determines largely the specific trails ridden for most riders. Every trail has a “personality”, every trail requires certain skills- either a rider has them or not. Many riders differentiate trails by “technical” of “flow” and will ride trails they feel comfortable on. This is a key understanding: Riders censor themselves to their own comfort and “fun” level of trails available and will SEEK OUT those trails to ride.[/INDENT]

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[INDENT]The recent past has seen more Novice, Beginner, and Intermediate riders tend to gravitate towards the flow “New School” trails of Fromme and Seymour, as they are typically easier and more forgiving to ride as there are fewer features requiring a “technical” ability to ride.

Think of technical ability to be a blend of athleticism, bike control, and trail seat time experience. Trail seat time experience is like that of a driver “reading” the road surface in a snowy environment (tires on the road allows a driver to control the car tires of mountain bike allows a rider to control the bike on wet rock, slippery roots, or soft dirt)- it is the awareness and experience one has that allows them to correctly “read” the surface in order to control their traction and movement.

It is a fact that Cypress trails have mostly steep original terrain, consisting of largely technical descents, which have an inherent level of advanced difficulty. More recently built flow “New School” trails can also create difficulty - but there is no substitution for original terrain.

The key distinctions (simplified) are these:

1. Cypress Trail Perceptions versus Fromme / Seymour Trail Perceptions
2. Technical “Old School” versus Flow “New School”
3. Original Advanced Terrain versus Original Moderate Terrain
4. Existing Advanced Challenge versus Built Moderate Challenge

The natural, largely un-built, terrain with its inherent level of advanced difficulty: it cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world so close to a city.[/INDENT]

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[INDENT]There was a time where the higher the stunt in the air, the skinnier the lumber, the larger boulder drop onto a back wheel with elastomer suspension, the greater you were as a North Shore rider.

As bikes changed, and riding styles changed, the measurement of riding “popularity” has also changed: the “slow” North Shore technical riding started to give way to “faster” technical open space riding, exemplified by the form of Red Bull Rampage:

[INDENT]“It's what inspired the folks at Red Bull to host the first ever Red Bull Rampage, which, if you think about it, might have been the main contributor to the fade on freeride's original gleam. Now it was a competition. Now you weren't freeriding anymore. Now your style and your line choice and the amplitude of your air counted for something.

Just look at what ensued: slopestyle competitions that struggle to find the sweetspot between a dirt jump competition and a big mountain competition

Sure, it's just a name, but is Crankworx really a freeride competition?

So how do we qualify the evolution? Street, dirt jump, bike park, downhill, enduro, slopestyle, these are the children of freeride for the most part.” (Scott)[/INDENT]

This evolution in riding, and the accompanying large competition event inspired “wow factor” of a faster, flowier, style of riding, with big fantastic jumps and crazy tricks captured on video and cheered on by crowds is transforming the trails desired by some riders. As indicated above, a moderate flow “New School” trail is more forgiving so has more attractiveness for the less skilled riders but that is not to say that an advanced flow “New School” trail cannot be built. One recently was and it was called “Never Never Land”.
[/INDENT]

LASTLY

[INDENT]Most rider’s want to increase their riding skills, so the beginner riders will eventually seek out intermediate (it is the natural progression of basic skills on a bike that this naturally occurs); the intermediate riders could eventually seek out advanced (should they wish to seek a more exciting trail experience); the advanced rider might seek out expert (should their advanced biking abilities and personal risk tolerance allow). Note that each rider will, at some point, say they are happy with what they are riding, and the enjoyment gained, and will continue to ride at that level of ability.

So there is a choice to be considered in terms of the trail type(s) to be supported on Cypress. Technical “Old School”; Flow “New School”; or a blend; which impact a wide range of variables-

1) Rider’s Perception of trail style type availability will impact Rider Volumes for that trail style type;
2) Rider Volume increases as trail difficulty perceptions/realities decrease;
3) Rider Volume decreases as trail difficulty perceptions/realities increase;
4) Trail Style Popularity impacts Rider Supply demanding that Trail Style;
5) Higher rider volumes increase trail costs;
6) Lower rider volumes decrease trail costs;
7) Higher rider volumes may increase perceived liability risk;
8) Lower rider volumes may decrease perceived liability risk;
9) Rider Volumes impact parking requirements and economic spin offs;
[/INDENT]

Like I say, remarks here, but specific corrections or criticisms, email gberg at mtbcypress.ca

This is the exact thesis for the old school technical trails I am using for MTBCypress in this doc. It leads to the recognition of rider volume, as supported by the MTBCypress Survey Monkey survey data.

tashi - I would point out that the number of riders who would/can ride the old school trails would be much smaller than those who do/can ride the TAP trails by a very large magnitude thus the maintenance would be much smaller. And when the rains come again those old school trails get even less riding. I would venture a guess that the new trails with the volume of riders and length of riding year will therefore require the same amount or more to maintain them as the old school trails.

^^^
Quoted for truth

Cypress. Bring your big bike.

my thesis is that the lack of true intermediate trails has led to a greater impact on more harder technical trails as intermediates will try out the harder stuff since there are no other options, and thereby impact it more by skidding, walking, braiding, etc. I'd like to believe that as that bell curve distribution of skill level trails evens out a bit more that we'd actually see less impact on the more natural technical trails as it will take that peak load off them and allow more riders to develop a skill set before attempting harder trails. But like I said, that's just my own idea….

but in the end, a trail that's 'old school' because it's eroded and has water running down it removing all the soil, really isn't technical, it's eroded, with a shitty trail alignment. Honest question to the flow/'new school' haters, what's an acceptable trail that's technical but not just an eroded piece of shit? Especially on the shore where rain and rider volume and overall steepness play a huge role in impact to said trails? Every natural tech trail I've ridden on the shore usually has massive amounts of water running down it when it gets wet, and that's exactly what you don't want in a trail….honest question, and I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, but I have a hard time seeing this other side of the coin.

As soon as you work to get water off the trail, you're going to have grade reversals, and bench cuts, and whatnot, and hopefully the gold stays longer and you don't get to the root systems, that's kind of the point of water management on trails, is it not? I think that the bigger issue is that from a management perspective and long term sustainability of the trails system, that for the vast majority of the North Shore mountains given their usage levels, geography, and overall wetness for large parts of the year, fall line 'old school' trails are just not appropriate for the most part.

Unfortunately, this argument comes up again and again, and the solution is always the same. Flip got it perfect with this response.

My 2 cents.

No-one likes change, and I love the old school trails, but in the last 7-8 years I've been doing a lot more building, and one thing I've come to realise is that what I loved in techy trails, is really just really shit, totally unsustainable trail alignment. It's fun for a while, then it just gets blown out, trenched, wet, the wood gets polished and worn and the rock also gets polished and just dangerous.
The problem is, people still want this, but with the current volume of ridership on the shore, it's impossible to sustain this for even a short period of time, since even beginners will think that they have the skills and will then go try the trail, skid, braid and walk their way down the hill, damaging the original line.

The only thing that will work, is to keep the advanced trails on a different mountain. Cypress is a perfect venue for this, and it looks like Gord and Alan have things really sorted with their approach.

Also, if you still want old school tech, there are a couple of options on Fromme that are still perfectly fine (eg. Grannies), or, you can travel half an hour and you are on Eagle or Burke where there are lots of great old school options, some of which (Nescafe) aren't super steep, still really technical and probably moderately sustainable given the current ridership volume.

As others have said the NSMBA has been doing a lot of work trying to maintain the trails that we have. They have limited time so are focussing on areas that get a lot of value for their time and money. The more volunteers they have the more they will be able to do.

The best way to be able to make the voice of advanced expert riders is to participate by doing the following.

1. Join your local trail organization
2. Attend AGM and other meetings of the trail organization
3. Take a trail building course
4. Attend trail days (yeah I know I need to do more of that myself)
5. Volunteer to be a director (of Gnar!)

I think Alan [HTML_REMOVED] Gord's approach where they are taking on Cypress and working with the NSMBA is the way to go.

^Re. Cypress, as someone who rides there occasionally, personally I think one reason that the 'noobs' stay away is that the mountain is hard to navigate. I've got a certain trail book and even with that I find it a nightmare. I was a qualified guide and did no shortage of map reading in the Scouts so I don't think I'm a COMPLETE idiot in this regard. Maybe British OS maps spoiled me in my youth….
Combine this with the fact that you can be riding down an awesome singletrack trail for most of the way down thinking "this is the best trail on Earth!" only to come across a fecking log ride 6ft in the air with a gap jump off the end, which then leads to a horrible eroded mess of a boulder field down to the end of the trail (maybe I should have turned left in between the log and the mess….) and riding Cypress can be a bit tedious unless you are 'in the know'. There's plenty of intermediate trails there, it just seems hard linking them together.

Not a complaint, just an observation ;)

As for Fromme, there's still loads of old school lines. Whether many people bother to find them, ride them or maintain them is another matter…. Most people just seem to want to build 'loamers' which get shut down again.

^Re. Cypress, as someone who rides there occasionally, personally I think one reason that the 'noobs' stay away is that the mountain is hard to navigate….
Combine this with the fact that you can be riding down an awesome singletrack trail for most of the way down thinking "this is the best trail on Earth!" only to come across a fecking log ride 6ft in the air with a gap jump off the end, which then leads to a horrible eroded mess of a boulder field down to the end of the trail

I started exploring Cypress this summer, have to say, completely agree. Had a knowledgeable buddy with me the first couple of rides, my first ride relying on my own knowledge was tough after a certain point. Getting better, but it's not an easy place to wrap your head around.

Mind you, I am loving Cypress. Some great trails and fantastic non-hard core downhill options. Yep, I have come across the oddly placed random stunt, but Cypress has opened up a whole new realm to me. Feel like I know have a whole new family of trails to choose from for my rides.

Not to mention, the climb up BLT is a crazy good workout !