New posts

ebikes on the Shore

Sept. 25, 2022, 10:29 a.m.
Posts: 1774
Joined: Nov. 8, 2003

Posted by: heckler

Posted by: Vikb

I have dealt with a fair % of e-bikers who simply don't use the derailleur on their bikes and use the power selector instead. Some who were actually surprised there was another speed modulation option.

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

This is hilarious. We went out while on vacation this summer on e-bikes for some mellow trail riding with a guide, the most emphasized instruction was to not use the shifters at all, just put it in turbo. 😆

Sept. 25, 2022, 10:46 a.m.
Posts: 2319
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: tashi

Mountain biking is still that sport if you don’t use a motor.

I've been riding bicycles since I was a kid and riding mountain bikes since they were a thing in Canada in the 80's. I've got a vested interest in what happens in the bicycle world and adding motors to bicycles has been the biggest change in that community that I have seen and I think it's a negative change hence my opinion on the subject. Mountain biking is only that sport if you don't use a motor. You can ride a broped on the same trails, but it's not the same activity. The whole strategy of aligning mopeds with mountain bikes was only to get motors on non-motorized trails.

I can't think of one recreational activity that went from strictly human powered to motorized that resulted in a more healthy participating population or less environmental impacts. I don't think that change to bicycling will be any different.

Whelp, based on my experience riding them, they’re mountain bikes because that’s what they ride the most like. So to me, the folks that ride them are mountain bikers so we have more in common than not and I don’t feel the need for the insults.

I’m in agreement with you that’s they’re part of a trend towards laziness for some, they’re not inherently so and you may be choosing to focus on the negative and that’s causing your scorn for ebike users. See the experienced riders, injured riders, trail builders (some of whoms work you enjoy on a regular basis I might add) for examples of more positive uses and you’ll see how laughable your generalization about ebike riders is.

Personally, I used to whine that climbing trails, bermed trails, trail maps, Strava, GPS, made mountain biking too easy (particularly for newcomers to town who hadn’t “paid their dues” yet ;) and opened it up to lazy fucks who just wanted the easy option. Then I realized that the fucked up climbs, janky, unpredictable descents, and unmapped lines were still there, so now mountain biking was actually MORE than it used to be and I got over it, letting me  to appreciate the trails (*cough Sobo no michi *cough) and people that these soft new developments brought into the sport.


 Last edited by: tashi on Sept. 25, 2022, 10:52 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Sept. 25, 2022, 10:50 a.m.
Posts: 2319
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: Hepcat

Posted by: heckler

Posted by: Vikb

I have dealt with a fair % of e-bikers who simply don't use the derailleur on their bikes and use the power selector instead. Some who were actually surprised there was another speed modulation option.

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

This is hilarious. We went out while on vacation this summer on e-bikes for some mellow trail riding with a guide, the most emphasized instruction was to not use the shifters at all, just put it in turbo. 😆

Which is useful on easy trails, and way easier to teach newcomers than shifting. This just doesn’t work on the hard stuff.

(Also what a guide does to get clients to the end of the day is not necessarily the same as what you’d do to teach someone how to ride.)

Sept. 25, 2022, 2:37 p.m.
Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 7, 2020

How is more suspension and bigger brakes an acceptable paid tech advantage while a motor is not? 

I bought a new bike this year; more travel, better brakes, bigger wheels, better suspension, it makes riding both up and down easier and faster. I want to dislike ebikes, having been ridden off both road and trail by ebike riders, but I am having trouble reconciling that the motor is bad yet my beefier fork is ok. I have a good early 90s rigid canti-braked bike that can show me quite plainly the difference I have paid for. 

But still I dislike hearing the whine of a motor coming up behind me. Perhaps I'm a hypocrite? 

Just like in the 80s when mountain bikers were fighting for trail access, I suspect that a lot of anti-ebike feelings would go away if ebike rider etiquette improved; stop pushing riders off trail, stop rooster-tailing on climbs.

Sept. 25, 2022, 5:55 p.m.
Posts: 1420
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: RAHrider

Why do they need to ride 60miles in a day? Does 60miles on an e(asy)bike give them twice the pleasure of 30miles on a bike?

As for this thread (and forum) shunning e(asy)bikers, what would you expect? Could you imagine going to motorcycle forum and posting all about your bicycle adventures and expecting them to be super supportive of your bicycle touring or mtb rides? The bicycle industry seems to think that cyclists were unsatisfied with their sport and were just waiting for motors to be added to their bike - this is not the case. What they probably are correct about is that a bunch of people who are not cyclists probably were not getting into bicycles as it was too hard. Motors does solve that problem.

Cycling has a number of steps of skill & fitness that unlock capability for the rider. Like how to shift and how to select pleasant cycling routes. Climbs are much more enjoyable if you get past the initial fitness hurdles of being a sedentary person. Mopeds provide the cheat code for a lot of those steps. No need to learn to how and when to shift if you can just jam the motor into Turbo mode and then back down to Eco on the flats. No need to select fun ways uphill that are efficient at human power levels when you can just Turbo up a DH trail or the steepest hill in town.

There really isn't an area of modern human life where the majority of society doesn't choose the path of least effort/most convenience. Imagine if you told someone they actually had to get off the sofa and walk 4' to the TV to change the channel or adjust the volume....then walk all the way back. They'd look at you like you were suggesting something Shakleton-esque.

The problem of course is taking the easy route every time leads to a fragile life that can't handle being challenged. Look around at what the average human looks like these days and what their health/physical/mental capabilities are. It's pretty sad.

Mountain biking used to be an activity where that process of challenging oneself was central to the sport. Now it's an annoying aspect that we are trying to buy our way out of with motors and batteries. We are watching MTBing turn into golf complete with electric golf carts.

Sorry Vik, it’s ok to have your opinion, it’s even ok to have disdain for e-bikes. But I couldn’t get past the first paragraph. It showed that you really haven’t got a clue about riding one. No disrespect intended, but when you shit all over another persons enjoyment you show a ton of disrespect. For what it’s worth, after 25+ years of mountain biking, I’ve been through ALL the steps.


 Last edited by: FLATCH on Sept. 25, 2022, 5:58 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Sept. 25, 2022, 7:16 p.m.
Posts: 579
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

Posted by: Squint

How is more suspension and bigger brakes an acceptable paid tech advantage while a motor is not? 

I bought a new bike this year; more travel, better brakes, bigger wheels, better suspension, it makes riding both up and down easier and faster. I want to dislike ebikes, having been ridden off both road and trail by ebike riders, but I am having trouble reconciling that the motor is bad yet my beefier fork is ok. I have a good early 90s rigid canti-braked bike that can show me quite plainly the difference I have paid for. 

But still I dislike hearing the whine of a motor coming up behind me. Perhaps I'm a hypocrite? 

Just like in the 80s when mountain bikers were fighting for trail access, I suspect that a lot of anti-ebike feelings would go away if ebike rider etiquette improved; stop pushing riders off trail, stop rooster-tailing on climbs.

Straw man argument. What about bearings? Or rubber, then? Technology we pay for....

To equate any of that to a totally separate ENERGY source is a very big stretch.

Flatch - I get viks point doesn't apply to everyone and he probably does too. Fair enough to call out a generalization as what it is, but I think it's tough to argue that his comments certainly apply to many ebikers. The whole "I can ride 60k instead of 15k" argument is parroted by many ebikers, it's not hard to find some that fit viks profile at virtually any trailhead.

Sept. 25, 2022, 7:57 p.m.
Posts: 33859
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Posted by: Silk

Working on Pipeline yesterday and this smart wheel made its first appearance on the trail.

I was impressed they rode all the wood work and 95% of the trail.

A guy on one of these types of things road by me today.  I thought you had to stand on it, but he was sitting down.  Looked like a squashed unicycle.

Sept. 25, 2022, 9:40 p.m.
Posts: 18433
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Posted by: Hepcat

Posted by: heckler

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

This is hilarious. We went out while on vacation this summer on e-bikes for some mellow trail riding with a guide, the most emphasized instruction was to not use the shifters at all, just put it in turbo. 😆

I guess there is a difference between an E-bike tour guide and a certified MTB Instructor.

Sept. 25, 2022, 10:33 p.m.
Posts: 1774
Joined: Nov. 8, 2003

Yup, that's the linchpin difference right there. Can always tell a Real Electric Mountain Bike Instructor© by whether they tell you to put your E-MTB in turbo or not 😅. That and amount of mustache wax.

Sept. 26, 2022, 10:19 a.m.
Posts: 1300
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: heckler

Posted by: Hepcat

Posted by: heckler

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

This is hilarious. We went out while on vacation this summer on e-bikes for some mellow trail riding with a guide, the most emphasized instruction was to not use the shifters at all, just put it in turbo. 😆

I guess there is a difference between an E-bike tour guide and a certified MTB Instructor.

If I had a tour group on ebikes I would tell them to crank the power rather than shifting under the pedalling force of them + their 500w motor. Seems like a no Brainer for noobs on rented ebikes.

Also, who has ever heard of motorized transportation with a 12 speed transmission. They should make it three speeds - uphill, downhill and flat.

Sept. 26, 2022, 1:36 p.m.
Posts: 18433
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Especially considering the gear crunching that happens when I shift an E-bike under slight load.  I can’t imagine the cassette and chain wear on the typical E-rental fleet.

Sept. 27, 2022, 1:04 a.m.
Posts: 5
Joined: Dec. 22, 2018

Posted by: Sethimus

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: RAHrider

Mountain biking used to be an activity where that process of challenging oneself was central to the sport. Now it's an annoying aspect that we are trying to buy our way out of with motors and batteries. We are watching MTBing turn into golf complete with electric golf carts.

if every ebiker just wants to use turbo all the time, why are sl ebikes getting so popular?

Because a Kenovo is too heavy to lift onto the rack :)

I have an electric trundler for golf too. Still have to walk 12kms or so behind the bloody thing.

Sept. 27, 2022, 8:12 a.m.
Posts: 174
Joined: March 1, 2017

I popped my E bike cherry recently. I think it was approx 1400m climb. Due to 'range anxiety' I think we all rode 95% of the way up in 'eco'. Hit 'trail' a few times on some of the steeper pitches but never used 'turbo / boost / Ludicrous etc'. I quite liked Eco mode. Reminded me of winching up a rocky climb in 4 Low in a truck. Trail was already starting to feel like a demented rocking horse. No idea why you'd want to use the high setting. 

It was pretty odd and a little unfulfilling getting into the alpine while hardly breaking a sweat on a sunny day. I think I had a couple of token swigs from my bottle over a 5hr ride. It was a novelty riding higher up than normal, but I'd probably only do that ride once a year anyway so given the choice of spending $19000 or taking 3 hours longer I'd take the extra time every time! Back on the hardtail again this weekend and the experience was ultimately more rewarding.

Sept. 27, 2022, 12:50 p.m.
Posts: 1375
Joined: March 18, 2017

Posted by: FLATCH

No disrespect intended, but when you shit all over another persons enjoyment you show a ton of disrespect. 

What if my enjoyment is ripping my 450F up Mtn bike trails? The disrespect you're showing to my enjoyment makes you a hater. 

_______________________________

I was climbing a trail late Sunday afternoon; soon heard loud conversation. Within a few moments two e-bikers blew by me in full on convo mode. Once they rounded the next corner they were gone. 5m to the corner they just rounded and they weren't on the straight slog of a few 100m.  Had to have passed me at min 20km/h.

Sept. 28, 2022, 4:53 a.m.
Posts: 1420
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Then you’d be an asshole, a very disrespectful asshole

And if you’re trying to compare a class one ebike to a motorcycle well then you’d be a moron, a very disingenuous moron.


 Last edited by: FLATCH on Sept. 28, 2022, 6:17 a.m., edited 2 times in total.

Forum jump: