Posted by: tashi
Ya aside from your attitude I think a lot of it has to do with population.
Massive factor. The etiquette of fellow trail users is absolutely front/center when riding in high population trail systems, especially post-Covid lockdown. Fromme/Seymour are always some degree of "busy" most times I can manage to get out for a ride.
Hiked up Ned's with the dog a few nights ago and had a good chuckle at some dude battling down on a commuter e-bike. Was a MTB but the type with an adjustable stem and panniers etc.
He was actually coping relatively well in the section I saw him but was pretty amusing for sure... Highlights the eased effort required to get further into the forest though, which I can appreciate would be a real risk in whistler on Sproatt or similar zones....
In other news, Ned's didn't look as bad as I expected it to be. I feel like it was essentially in the same shape as when I last rode it 10+ years ago...!
CBC and Neds... best trails on the shore!
I haven't ridden Ned's in a decade (probably looks the same), but I'm actually really looking forward to the revamped CBC.
The potential for stranded ebikers caught out in Sproat was a big reason they decided not to permit ebikes (although probably secondary to the griz factor). SAR already haul enough folks out of there every year, and those people are strong/experienced enough to make it up on their own power.
Posted by: andy-eunson
Posted by: vantanclub
On point three how does Sproatt area work with limiting ebikes?
Signage, other bike riders tell them and there are rangers posted up there from time to time.
And I've seen all 3 ignored by many groups. One group in particular couldnt even ride up Mystic without crashing so no idea how they managed on the way down.
People on the internet "I saw a guy on the wrong bike on Ned's, it was an e-commuter."
Guy with said bike "yeah so today I took the long way home, rode from downtown up to Ned's than over trough Lynn Valley linked up paths to Edgemont for groceries and finished up at home in Pemberton Heights, yeah fun little rip."
What a looser, he was probably wearing performance jeans too instead of proper bike gear.
@earleb. When did you get the downtown job?
Posted by: BeesIntheTrap
Posted by: andy-eunson
Posted by: vantanclub
On point three how does Sproatt area work with limiting ebikes?
Signage, other bike riders tell them and there are rangers posted up there from time to time.
And I've seen all 3 ignored by many groups. One group in particular couldnt even ride up Mystic without crashing so no idea how they managed on the way down.
Well they can't guard all the trails 247. I have no doubt that the current process succeeds in keeping the bulk of the e-people away from that system though.
Posted by: earleb
People on the internet "I saw a guy on the wrong bike on Ned's, it was an e-commuter."
Guy with said bike "yeah so today I took the long way home, rode from downtown up to Ned's than over trough Lynn Valley linked up paths to Edgemont for groceries and finished up at home in Pemberton Heights, yeah fun little rip."
What a looser, he was probably wearing performance jeans too instead of proper bike gear.
I doubt this was the OP's opinion on the subject, although I would probably snicker at the pannier rattle vs. Neds too. By the end of the trail, I'd guess the rider would have probably agreed they could have chosen a better trail for their given equipment.
You'd hope so, though it often doesnt feel that way when you're up there.
Posted by: earleb
People on the internet "I saw a guy on the wrong bike on Ned's, it was an e-commuter."
Guy with said bike "yeah so today I took the long way home, rode from downtown up to Ned's than over trough Lynn Valley linked up paths to Edgemont for groceries and finished up at home in Pemberton Heights, yeah fun little rip."
What a looser, he was probably wearing performance jeans too instead of proper bike gear.
Hahaha. not jeans but he had his commuter issue wet weather pants on. Like I said he was coping pretty well with the chunk so good on him...
Posted by: cerealkilla_
- Hard to "dislike" the increase of riders. It's not a behavior - it's a function of our society. I am far more concerned how any segment of that growing population may behave, particularly in terms of wrecking things for everyone else.
- Etiquette - there is lots of peer pressure and club-based education focused on this. Trailforks has helped with their wet-weather friendly trails filter. However, there has been a total and absolute black hole of conversation in terms of e-bike specific etiquette. The loudest voices promoting ebikes have had ZERO to offer in terms of how to manage this great new technology appropriately. The sellers and pushers have left it to everyone else to make the common sense suggestions such as polite heads up when passing uphill in boost mode. While ebike fans have made loud demands to be treated like mountain bikes, a group of them have simultaneously refused to actually behave like mountain bikes as they ride UP popular downhill routes. Pretty simple that if you want to be treated as a mountain bike, you should follow the established traffic patterns set by existing riders. But nope! Still have issues with those that think they can re-arrange the flow, and throttle up the blue trails and easy blacks. Etiquette is cancelled out by entitlement among a small group. Still, the vast majority of people riding ebikes conduct themselves as politely as most other riders. There will always be a small part of every group that makes the rest look bad. Might just be up to the rest of us to shame the d-bags to keep their number in check.
- Can't imagine limiting ebikes to any specific trails. That would take Section 56 rules, which Ministry is reluctant to make, and is almost certainly unlikely to make for ebikes. Probably more important to keep them riding with the flow and properly integrated with other traffic, than trying to separate them.
Posted by: syncro
- An increase of riders is a behaviour - it's people choosing to participate in an activity. An increase of riders adds to trail erosion. I've brought this issue up before and it's strange that in the context of ebikes people see no problem with the ever increasing numbers of riders on the trails but yet on a sunny day on the weekend people will definitely make a point of talking about how busy the trails were, hard to find parking, etc. From a trail erosion standpoint the increase in riders over the past 10yrs has been detrimental to the overall health of the trail network, so I find that hard to like.
- Etiquette is a huge thing, and the best way to improve that is to be welcoming and get people involved. Constantly beating a drum that ebikers are some evil spawn is not going to do that. Negatively stereotyping a group is not going to motivate them to get involved with trail orgs and learning about proper trail etiquette.
- If it's more important to keep ebikers riding with the flow and porperly integrated with other traffic then how is maligning them going to encourage that?
Agree 100%. eBikes are here, they are not going anywhere. At this point, it is better to try to start integrating rather than excluding. Yes, there are going to be a-holes and yes, you are going to have bad interactions on the trail, but I am already seeing that with all of the new people on regular bikes. Rarely a smile or wave, not yielding to climbers, dragging brakes everywhere, buzzing hikers.
I ride with a friend who actually needs an eBike due to some health issues. The amount of glares and evil looks he gets from people on the trail is ridiculous. Other eBike riders in the area report the same and you know what their response is to that? "F 'em, I am going to just do what I want then". That is how most people react, so instead, just be nice. Be open. If you welcome people, they might start listening to trail etiquette tips or not ride in areas they shouldn't.
Posted by: syncro
Posted by: cerealkilla_
- Hard to "dislike" the increase of riders. It's not a behavior - it's a function of our society. I am far more concerned how any segment of that growing population may behave, particularly in terms of wrecking things for everyone else.
- Etiquette - there is lots of peer pressure and club-based education focused on this. Trailforks has helped with their wet-weather friendly trails filter. However, there has been a total and absolute black hole of conversation in terms of e-bike specific etiquette. The loudest voices promoting ebikes have had ZERO to offer in terms of how to manage this great new technology appropriately. The sellers and pushers have left it to everyone else to make the common sense suggestions such as polite heads up when passing uphill in boost mode. While ebike fans have made loud demands to be treated like mountain bikes, a group of them have simultaneously refused to actually behave like mountain bikes as they ride UP popular downhill routes. Pretty simple that if you want to be treated as a mountain bike, you should follow the established traffic patterns set by existing riders. But nope! Still have issues with those that think they can re-arrange the flow, and throttle up the blue trails and easy blacks. Etiquette is cancelled out by entitlement among a small group. Still, the vast majority of people riding ebikes conduct themselves as politely as most other riders. There will always be a small part of every group that makes the rest look bad. Might just be up to the rest of us to shame the d-bags to keep their number in check.
- Can't imagine limiting ebikes to any specific trails. That would take Section 56 rules, which Ministry is reluctant to make, and is almost certainly unlikely to make for ebikes. Probably more important to keep them riding with the flow and properly integrated with other traffic, than trying to separate them.
- An increase of riders is a behaviour - it's people choosing to participate in an activity. An increase of riders adds to trail erosion. I've brought this issue up before and it's strange that in the context of ebikes people see no problem with the ever increasing numbers of riders on the trails but yet on a sunny day on the weekend people will definitely make a point of talking about how busy the trails were, hard to find parking, etc. From a trail erosion standpoint the increase in riders over the past 10yrs has been detrimental to the overall health of the trail network, so I find that hard to like.
- Etiquette is a huge thing, and the best way to improve that is to be welcoming and get people involved. Constantly beating a drum that ebikers are some evil spawn is not going to do that. Negatively stereotyping a group is not going to motivate them to get involved with trail orgs and learning about proper trail etiquette.
- If it's more important to keep ebikers riding with the flow and porperly integrated with other traffic then how is maligning them going to encourage that?
No, an increase in riders is NOT a behavior in the sense of a specific act. It is the growth of a group. Within that group there are specific behaviors. Most of them good. A small part of them bad.
Where exactly is someone beating a drum about ebikers in general? Stop trying to mispresent other people's points. It is explicitly clear I am referring to a small group (as exists in all groups), and pointing out how the technology introduces distinct considerations to etiquette. Your choice to ignore that point, and try to gloss over, misrepresent, and confuse the issue is just plain weird. Not sure what you are trying to defend here. It's almost as if you choose to ignore other people's points, claim they said they something they did not, and start an argument. THAT is poor etiquette.
Again, misrepresenting and twisting other people words. Again, THAT is a lack of etiquette. If we want to integrate ebikes, very frigging simple...have them follow the same norms and habits as other riders. Surely if you can tie your shoes you can understand that. Or maybe you're a velcro guy. Who knows?
Posted by: cerealkilla_
No, an increase in riders is NOT a behavior in the sense of a specific act. It is the growth of a group. Within that group there are specific behaviors. Most of them good. A small part of them bad.
Where exactly is someone beating a drum about ebikers in general? Stop trying to mispresent other people's points. It is explicitly clear I am referring to a small group (as exists in all groups), and pointing out how the technology introduces distinct considerations to etiquette. Your choice to ignore that point, and try to gloss over, misrepresent, and confuse the issue is just plain weird. Not sure what you are trying to defend here. It's almost as if you choose to ignore other people's points, claim they said they something they did not, and start an argument. THAT is poor etiquette.
Again, misrepresenting and twisting other people words. Again, THAT is a lack of etiquette. If we want to integrate ebikes, very frigging simple...have them follow the same norms and habits as other riders. Surely if you can tie your shoes you can understand that. Or maybe you're a velcro guy. Who knows?
Woah, reel it in there a bit will ya?.
I'm taking a bit of a different context on behaviour and considering it from the greater social sense as opposed to specific in-group behaviours which is why I disagree on your use of the behaviour. Participating in a specific sport is a behaviour as are the ways one conducts themselves in that sport.
Most importantly though I'm not trying to misrepresent your words, I'm speaking to the general case and using observation of how a fair number of riders are anti-ebike in their commentary about ebikes. There are plenty examples of ebike dislike in this thread, on other threads in this forum and all over social media in general. It's not hard to find someone talking bad about ebikes. I'll excuse your velcro comment as you're misinterpreting what I said with that last comment - I'm agreeing with you and saying the same thing. In fact, I've been saying that very thing since the debate about ebikes kicked off. That question was a rhetorical statement saying that we can't expect to integrate ebikers if they're are being maligned by regular bikers because they won't want to participate with people who are shaming them. This is critical, because of ebikes are going to become the dominant mode of participating on mtb'ing then it's critical to engage people with the idea of participating in good trail etiquette, which includes riding in a manner that does not cause excess erosion and participating in trail orgs in some capacity.
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