ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

I tend to think that for many people, features=status.

To give a motoring example, I specifically bought a 22 year hatchback (I'd had the same model previously). It cost $1500. Other than very lightly assisted power steering it has zero driving aids. It has these funny lever things to get the windows up and down ;) Being the 'high end' model, this one does at least have a radio! But not much else. Not even much power....I think a massive 106bhp. I have to change between gears by trying to move a lever with one hand and push a pedal with another foot at the same time. What a palaver! Yet I really enjoy driving it, especially ripping up and down the S2S from time to time. I've clearly never broken the speed limit as that would be very naughty, but if I did, the little car would probably take every corner from Squamish to NV at 130kph just fine and not drink much gas doing so. But there is an expectation in society that you 'have' to have a vehicle with ALL the features, weighs two tons and has 500bhp. It's a huge waste of the planets resources and at the end of the day more numbing to drive. Might as well drive itself. How dull is that? 

But apparently this is the future of mountain biking. All the features and a bike that does almost everything for you. With all the electronic integration going on, they are the SUVs of the bicycle world. You'll never have to engage your brain or heart again.

I salute you brother.

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

I tend to think that for many people, features=status.

To give a motoring example, I specifically bought a 22 year hatchback (I'd had the same model previously). It cost $1500. Other than very lightly assisted power steering it has zero driving aids. It has these funny lever things to get the windows up and down ;) Being the 'high end' model, this one does at least have a radio! But not much else. Not even much power....I think a massive 106bhp. I have to change between gears by trying to move a lever with one hand and push a pedal with another foot at the same time. What a palaver! Yet I really enjoy driving it, especially ripping up and down the S2S from time to time. I've clearly never broken the speed limit as that would be very naughty, but if I did, the little car would probably take every corner from Squamish to NV at 130kph just fine and not drink much gas doing so. But there is an expectation in society that you 'have' to have a vehicle with ALL the features, weighs two tons and has 500bhp. It's a huge waste of the planets resources and at the end of the day more numbing to drive. Might as well drive itself. How dull is that? 

But apparently this is the future of mountain biking. All the features and a bike that does almost everything for you. With all the electronic integration going on, they are the SUVs of the bicycle world. You'll never have to engage your brain or heart again.

Nicely done. I have always had trouble articulating what it is about ebikes that I find disappointing, while trying to avoid coming off as a judgmental (or envious) "hater". But this comparison you have made sums up my feelings perfectly. SUVs of the bicycle world, being ridden largely by the mountain biking equivalents of Soccer Moms perhaps?

Posted by: Nath

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

I tend to think that for many people, features=status.

To give a motoring example, I specifically bought a 22 year hatchback (I'd had the same model previously). It cost $1500. Other than very lightly assisted power steering it has zero driving aids. It has these funny lever things to get the windows up and down ;) Being the 'high end' model, this one does at least have a radio! But not much else. Not even much power....I think a massive 106bhp. I have to change between gears by trying to move a lever with one hand and push a pedal with another foot at the same time. What a palaver! Yet I really enjoy driving it, especially ripping up and down the S2S from time to time. I've clearly never broken the speed limit as that would be very naughty, but if I did, the little car would probably take every corner from Squamish to NV at 130kph just fine and not drink much gas doing so. But there is an expectation in society that you 'have' to have a vehicle with ALL the features, weighs two tons and has 500bhp. It's a huge waste of the planets resources and at the end of the day more numbing to drive. Might as well drive itself. How dull is that? 

But apparently this is the future of mountain biking. All the features and a bike that does almost everything for you. With all the electronic integration going on, they are the SUVs of the bicycle world. You'll never have to engage your brain or heart again.

Nicely done. I have always had trouble articulating what it is about ebikes that I find disappointing, while trying to avoid coming off as a judgmental (or envious) "hater". But this comparison you have made sums up my feelings perfectly. SUVs of the bicycle world, being ridden largely by the mountain biking equivalents of Soccer Moms perhaps?

That's the final frontier for bike sales: people who don't like riding bikes, people who don't like their shortcoming reflected back to them in any way, people who feel entitled to all the things but are unwilling to put in the time, effort and requisite humility of people who committed to all the things.

How all this is going to be regulated does my head in.

https://robbreport.com/gear/electronics/segway-gt-series-e-scooter-gt1-gt2-1234672181/

Funny clip that had some similar parallels:

https://stabmag.com/elsewhere/serial-surf-pest-takes-diy-jet-board-to-crowded-shark-island-catches-2-waves-in-a-set-kills-disgruntled-lineup-with-shaka-kindness/

Posted by: andy-eunson

Are ebikes becoming ubiquitous in North Van? Is ebike use a real problem or a perceived one? It seems to me that if a rider for whatever reasons replaces their bike with an ebike but does the same rides it’s not really much different. Of course the marketing thrust seems to be more riding in a given amount of time or because it is usually less tiring that will have an impact on the trail wear and probably a negative perception by non riders. 

The people in my periphery that have "switched" to ebikes definitely have done so in order to cram in more descending, and they're all veteran riders of the shore. It's one of those things that, when equated with the shuttling option, seems pretty harmless on the surface. But considering that basically every descent on the shore can be effectively "shuttled" now, it will definitely add up to a lot more trail wear in places that traditionally don't require as much maintenance. That's one of my main peeves with ebikes these days, and I can't think of a better term than entitlement, for what drives people to buy ebikes for the sole purpose of "more".

We ride these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...

JFK

Posted by: taprider

We ride these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...

JFK

Hey. Didn’t I paraphrase that already? That’s my feelings though.

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: andy-eunson

Are ebikes becoming ubiquitous in North Van? Is ebike use a real problem or a perceived one? It seems to me that if a rider for whatever reasons replaces their bike with an ebike but does the same rides it’s not really much different. Of course the marketing thrust seems to be more riding in a given amount of time or because it is usually less tiring that will have an impact on the trail wear and probably a negative perception by non riders. 

The people in my periphery that have "switched" to ebikes definitely have done so in order to cram in more descending, and they're all veteran riders of the shore. It's one of those things that, when equated with the shuttling option, seems pretty harmless on the surface. But considering that basically every descent on the shore can be effectively "shuttled" now, it will definitely add up to a lot more trail wear in places that traditionally don't require as much maintenance. That's one of my main peeves with ebikes these days, and I can't think of a better term than entitlement, for what drives people to buy ebikes for the sole purpose of "more".

Sometimes I wish it was easier. But whenever my ride doesn't include a grunt of a climb I always come home dissatisfied. And that sets me up for the next big challenge: developing the sac to do that gruesome climb a second time. Without the meat the pudding is just a bunch of wet cardboard. 

I still like the idea of self-shuttling from home. Get major mileage in even with the assist and save a bunch of driving and reducing my participation in the ever-worsening NS gridlock. But oh, what's that, even a 900kwh battery can't get a 235lbs guy from east van, up a mountain and back home again and I should still expect to drive that $15k 55lb moped across the bridge. These things are going to have to get a whole lot better before I get on board.

Posted by: andy-eunson

Are ebikes becoming ubiquitous in North Van? Is ebike use a real problem or a perceived one? It seems to me that if a rider for whatever reasons replaces their bike with an ebike but does the same rides it’s not really much different. Of course the marketing thrust seems to be more riding in a given amount of time or because it is usually less tiring that will have an impact on the trail wear and probably a negative perception by non riders. 

When I had done my ride today and was loading my bike in the truck, I noticed a fellow unloading his ebike from a North Shore type rack. Took him three tries. He didn’t look like a rider. Full face but no pads and shorts. Somewhat fleshy. Maybe he had pads in a pack but I didn’t see that. I think part of the ebike "hate" is that we see ebikes as not us. They didn’t pay their dues kind of thing. 

I think a bit of a real and perceived problem. It may be hard to see the wear on the trails, for example, but some ebikers are definitely the disconnected, not quite us, didn't pay their dues types. If their lack of etiquette when ripping by on a climb trail is any indication of their lack of etiquette anywhere else, its not hard to imagine a decline in the condition of trails, even if these things didn't have motors.

I will go out on a limb here and argue that ebikes will contribute to increased destruction of trails. The key issue is not that people will do more laps. I think that is beyond question, with some people doing triple and quadruple laps of trails that they could normally only ride once. This is most impactful on non-shuttle-able trails where big bikes would normally never wander. But that's not my main concern.

I think the greatest impact comes from WHEN people will ride ebikes. I've already seen many avid riders and pros talk about ebikes as their choice for winter riding and bad weather days.

Yeah, great.  You want to slap on big fenders and rain jackets and easily blast up in the snow and rain? Ebike can help you do that. Freeze-thaw and knee-deep puddles be damned.  Who cares about the mud when you can throttle through it? Why worry about your 4 pounds of gortex and big mudflaps, because you only have to break a sweat if you want to. Scotty, give me boost power now!  

Ebikes allow people to ride comfortably when the trails are at their worst, and at times they may normally just not ride.  Don't worry though. The endless army of trail builders will just armor everything with rocks when the dirt has been all stripped away.  Loamers in winter, loamers in spring! One season of riding and all the trails end up as another atomic dustbin. 

Of course lots of people ride mountain bikes in bad weather, not just ebikes. This just makes it a LOT easier.

Couple thoughts on the recent posts.

Re trail wear, what factor does increased ridership play? For anyone that's been riding for at least the past 10, and worse going back 20 or 30 years, the number of people out riding has absolutely exploded in the past 5 years, especially the last 2-3. How many new trails have appeared in that time, particularly sanctioned trails where a lot of the newer riders may be heading? Is there as much dislike for the huge increase in new riders as there is for ebikes?

Second, how are or how should the issues of trail etiquette be handled? So things like riding sensitive trails in the rain/wet, riding technique to avoid dragging brakes and causing ruts?

Third, how are people getting involved to lobby land managers to consider expanding trail networks, and what types of trails are built? Should there be a bunch of new machine built trails constructed to hopefully help take pressure off old school single track jank? If governmental authorities are ok with plowing a hillside forest for housing, roads and parking lots then should they not be okay with digging up maybe 1-2% of the forest floor in a certain area in order to create more trails, including machine built trails?

My feeling is that if the mtb community doesn't start having some serious discussions on these things then there probably will be problems down the road if mtb ebikes take over as the preferred bike of choice on trails as some think might happen.

EDIT: Oh, and what about uphill travel? How do people feel about the idea of restricting uphill travel of ebikes to roads or gravel paths like Old Buck and banning them from climbing routes?

Posted by: syncro

Couple thoughts on the recent posts.

Re trail wear, what factor does increased ridership play? For anyone that's been riding for at least the past 10, and worse going back 20 or 30 years, the number of people out riding has absolutely exploded in the past 5 years, especially the last 2-3. How many new trails have appeared in that time, particularly sanctioned trails where a lot of the newer riders may be heading? Is there as much dislike for the huge increase in new riders as there is for ebikes?

Second, how are or how should the issues of trail etiquette be handled? So things like riding sensitive trails in the rain/wet, riding technique to avoid dragging brakes and causing ruts?

Third, how are people getting involved to lobby land managers to consider expanding trail networks, and what types of trails are built? Should there be a bunch of new machine built trails constructed to hopefully help take pressure off old school single track jank? If governmental authorities are ok with plowing a hillside forest for housing, roads and parking lots then should they not be okay with digging up maybe 1-2% of the forest floor in a certain area in order to create more trails, including machine built trails?

My feeling is that if the mtb community doesn't start having some serious discussions on these things then there probably will be problems down the road if mtb ebikes take over as the preferred bike of choice on trails as some think might happen.

EDIT: Oh, and what about uphill travel? How do people feel about the idea of restricting uphill travel of ebikes to roads or gravel paths like Old Buck and banning them from climbing routes?

• Hard to "dislike" the increase of riders. It's not a behavior - it's a function of our society. I am far more concerned how any segment of that growing population may behave, particularly in terms of wrecking things for everyone else.
• Etiquette - there is lots of peer pressure and club-based education focused on this. Trailforks has helped with their wet-weather friendly trails filter. However, there has been a total and absolute black hole of conversation in terms of e-bike specific etiquette. The loudest voices promoting ebikes have had ZERO to offer in terms of how to manage this great new technology appropriately. The sellers and pushers have left it to everyone else to make the common sense suggestions such as polite heads up when passing uphill in boost mode. While ebike fans have made loud demands to be treated like mountain bikes, a group of them have simultaneously refused to actually behave like mountain bikes as they ride UP popular downhill routes. Pretty simple that if you want to be treated as a mountain bike, you should follow the established traffic patterns set by existing riders.  But nope! Still have issues with those that think they can re-arrange the flow, and throttle up the blue trails and easy blacks. Etiquette is cancelled out by entitlement among a small group. Still, the vast majority of people riding ebikes conduct themselves as politely as most other riders. There will always be a small part of every group that makes the rest look bad. Might just be up to the rest of us to shame the d-bags to keep their number in check.
• Can't imagine limiting ebikes to any specific trails. That would take Section 56 rules, which Ministry is reluctant to make, and is almost certainly unlikely to make for ebikes. Probably more important to keep them riding with the flow and properly integrated with other traffic, than trying to separate them.

Posted by: cerealkilla_

I will go out on a limb here and argue that ebikes will contribute to increased destruction of trails. The key issue is not that people will do more laps. I think that is beyond question, with some people doing triple and quadruple laps of trails that they could normally only ride once. This is most impactful on non-shuttle-able trails where big bikes would normally never wander. But that's not my main concern.

I think the greatest impact comes from WHEN people will ride ebikes. I've already seen many avid riders and pros talk about ebikes as their choice for winter riding and bad weather days.

Yeah, great.  You want to slap on big fenders and rain jackets and easily blast up in the snow and rain? Ebike can help you do that. Freeze-thaw and knee-deep puddles be damned.  Who cares about the mud when you can throttle through it? Why worry about your 4 pounds of gortex and big mudflaps, because you only have to break a sweat if you want to. Scotty, give me boost power now!  

Ebikes allow people to ride comfortably when the trails are at their worst, and at times they may normally just not ride.  Don't worry though. The endless army of trail builders will just armor everything with rocks when the dirt has been all stripped away.  Loamers in winter, loamers in spring! One season of riding and all the trails end up as another atomic dustbin. 

Of course lots of people ride mountain bikes in bad weather, not just ebikes. This just makes it a LOT easier.

This is a significant factor. One of the peripherals I mentioned above, who has recently converted to majority e-bike riding, is exactly like this. I know that before he bought his ebike, I would occasionally catch his IG posts shuttling in ungodly conditions, but the ebike has really upped that game. Him and his buddies are out in ALL conditions, head to toe goretex, railing ruts in the slop for countless laps.