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ebikes on the Shore

Dec. 21, 2021, 10:19 a.m.
Posts: 950
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Plenty of people ride up DH primary trails in Squamish on E bikes. I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do as such. I'd do it to make my ride less dull if I was riding an E bike. I also walk on 'MTB' trails a lot. But after 30+ years of mountain biking I like to think that I have the sense to listen out for riders and will get out of the way in good time. New riders maybe not so much. Bike companies are doing feck all to educate riders. They just want 'product' out of the door. 'Lets all cheat gravity and smash more laps broooooooooo'.

That is so bad. A full speed head on collision is going to be bad for everyone.

Dec. 21, 2021, 10:36 a.m.
Posts: 344
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

Posted by: craw

That is so bad. A full speed head on collision is going to be bad for everyone.

Agreed. Hiking is one thing, where you only have a body to get out of the way, and tend to be more audibly in-tune with the environment. Riding up most of the down-only trails I can think of, is just asking for a collision/injury scenario.

Dec. 21, 2021, 10:41 a.m.
Posts: 2467
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

But after 30+ years of mountain biking I like to think that I have the sense to listen out for riders and will get out of the way in good time. New riders maybe not so much. Bike companies are doing feck all to educate riders.

These are some really good points. The question is who has the responsibility to educate riders about proper trail etiquette and how should it be done?

Dec. 21, 2021, 11:25 a.m.
Posts: 2286
Joined: April 25, 2003

Riders have the responsibility to learn etiquette themselves. The info has been out there for years now, if people don’t know the etiquette by now that’s a choice they’ve made.

Dec. 21, 2021, 11:38 a.m.
Posts: 2467
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

Riders have the responsibility to learn etiquette themselves. The info has been out there for years now, if people don’t know the etiquette by now that’s a choice they’ve made.

I dunno, it's like saying people have the responsibility to learn how to drive a car themselves. The only difference is that there are formal regulations in place for driving a car and none for riding a bike or riding mtb trails. Have we reached a point where there needs to be be some sort of official bicycle license or trail pass?

Dec. 21, 2021, 11:59 a.m.
Posts: 2286
Joined: April 25, 2003

If the people can’t self regulate, I guess so.

Dec. 21, 2021, 2:55 p.m.
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: tashi

If the people can’t self regulate, I guess so.

Hey! Hey! Whoa there! We already pay trail passes everywhere here in Quebec without handing out any info on mtb riding etiquette, now I'd need to pay another "general riding" pass on top of that?! Hold on, maybe that could regulate everything, just like snowmobiling or 4-wheeler associations 🤔 

But seriously, humans can't self regulate (anymore?). Just look at people driving their cars, even with street lights, speed limits and stop signs, every time I am walking or driving I see people passing on red lights, speeding in school zones and other stupid things like that. It seems to get worse each year.

The more we have rules, the more people will try to find a way to go around it, or tell themselves that it's on'y valid for the others.

(Sorry for derailing the thread a few times!)

Dec. 21, 2021, 5:05 p.m.
Posts: 2286
Joined: April 25, 2003

🤷🏼‍♂️ 

Not my idea. Doubt it’s necessary most places.

Dec. 21, 2021, 5:08 p.m.
Posts: 33831
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Posted by: martin

Posted by: tashi

If the people can’t self regulate, I guess so.

...here in Quebec...I see people passing on red lights, speeding in school zones...

Well, you are in Quebec...

At least people in Quebec can drive.  BC is terrible.

Dec. 21, 2021, 7:06 p.m.
Posts: 129
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: tashi

🤷🏼‍♂️

Not my idea. Doubt it’s necessary most places.

I know, just joking haha!

@Switch  I used to think that drivers were not too bad here, but rest assured, it's pretty much evened out in the last few years.


 Last edited by: martin on Dec. 21, 2021, 7:06 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 22, 2021, 3:39 p.m.
Posts: 750
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Is this really an issue or just a white rhino? I personally have never seen any ebikers climbing downhill tracks.

Our local Ebike promoter internet sensation has repeatedly posted videos of himself going up trails that are labelled as downhill primary.  Totally douche way to promote your product. The downhill/uphill designation is made on the Section 57 application. Now that does not mean that it is illegal to go up them. However, the intended purpose for any reasonable person is downhill.  I've also seen some fairly well known riders blasting up Leave of Absence (downhill primary) on their ebikes against the flow on a trail that is super popular with beginner riders.  Nice. Taking your motor-assisted ride up the trail as kids and groups have to bail out of the way.  So yeah, it happens enough and with continued bad role-modelling, it will only get worse. 

Now, many ebike promoters have spouted off that they are "mountain bikes". If so, they should absolutely be expected to not only follow the rules of mountain biking, but also the etiquette and established traffic patterns. Ebikers going up downhill primary trails not only goes against the idea of them being "mountain bikes" it also goes against etiquette, and the established standards of care for reasonable trail users.

It is not reasonable to expect a person coming down say Credit Line or Rupert (or other trails buddy films himself on) to suddenly make way for a motor-assisted rider flying up the downhill trail. There is zero reasonable argument to give the uphill motor-assisted rider priority over the person descending the trail in the direction it was built to be travelled.

It my actually be unlikely that this argument is tested on liability due to an unfortunate collision. I hope it doesn't happen.  One would think people will do what they can to avoid it. However, the downhill riders are certainly being put more at risk in having to lock it up with a person coming up at them, and being deprived of enjoying the trails if making way for uphill riders who are only able to ride the trail in that direction by virtue of having a motor. To be clear, Credit Line can ONLY be climbed with motor assist. Rupert the same. Leave of Absence - possible with pedals, but only for super elites.  There are other trails that people climb here, those are just a few examples.

There are also plenty of technical climbs that are difficult enough for an ebike around here. SOT, Hoods, Credit Line, Take back the Donut, Debecks, most of Valleycliffe....all have tech climbs that average riders on ebikes will fail to clean. That's just Squamish - the shore may not have as many choices.

I'm all for electric-assist MTBs and have many friends that ride them (responsibly). But I'm full-on against Ebike riders claiming special privileges over other riders by going up the downhills against the flow, and then beaking off about wanting to be treated as mountain bikes.

Dec. 22, 2021, 5:29 p.m.
Posts: 1288
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: cerealkilla_

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Is this really an issue or just a white rhino? I personally have never seen any ebikers climbing downhill tracks.

Our local Ebike promoter internet sensation has repeatedly posted videos of himself going up trails that are labelled as downhill primary.  Totally douche way to promote your product. The downhill/uphill designation is made on the Section 57 application. Now that does not mean that it is illegal to go up them. However, the intended purpose for any reasonable person is downhill.  I've also seen some fairly well known riders blasting up Leave of Absence (downhill primary) on their ebikes against the flow on a trail that is super popular with beginner riders.  Nice. Taking your motor-assisted ride up the trail as kids and groups have to bail out of the way.  So yeah, it happens enough and with continued bad role-modelling, it will only get worse. 

Now, many ebike promoters have spouted off that they are "mountain bikes". If so, they should absolutely be expected to not only follow the rules of mountain biking, but also the etiquette and established traffic patterns. Ebikers going up downhill primary trails not only goes against the idea of them being "mountain bikes" it also goes against etiquette, and the established standards of care for reasonable trail users.

It is not reasonable to expect a person coming down say Credit Line or Rupert (or other trails buddy films himself on) to suddenly make way for a motor-assisted rider flying up the downhill trail. There is zero reasonable argument to give the uphill motor-assisted rider priority over the person descending the trail in the direction it was built to be travelled.

It my actually be unlikely that this argument is tested on liability due to an unfortunate collision. I hope it doesn't happen.  One would think people will do what they can to avoid it. However, the downhill riders are certainly being put more at risk in having to lock it up with a person coming up at them, and being deprived of enjoying the trails if making way for uphill riders who are only able to ride the trail in that direction by virtue of having a motor. To be clear, Credit Line can ONLY be climbed with motor assist. Rupert the same. Leave of Absence - possible with pedals, but only for super elites.  There are other trails that people climb here, those are just a few examples.

There are also plenty of technical climbs that are difficult enough for an ebike around here. SOT, Hoods, Credit Line, Take back the Donut, Debecks, most of Valleycliffe....all have tech climbs that average riders on ebikes will fail to clean. That's just Squamish - the shore may not have as many choices.

I'm all for electric-assist MTBs and have many friends that ride them (responsibly). But I'm full-on against Ebike riders claiming special privileges over other riders by going up the downhills against the flow, and then beaking off about wanting to be treated as mountain bikes.

Couldn't agree more. For a comparison we are all more used to. What would you think if a trials moto was going up the downhill mtb trails? They are totally capable of doing it but I don't see them doing it as they tend to respect the fact that those trails were built for a different purpose. In Squamish, the trials motos build their own uphill challenges. If emopeds want harder uphills, they will have to build them - plain and simple. They can designate them and mtb riders will have to respect that they are for a different purpose and resist the temptation to descend them. If Emopeds want to ride the coat tails of mtb, they have to respect the etiquette.

Dec. 22, 2021, 5:54 p.m.
Posts: 478
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

The more the instagram heros ride their ebikes up descent trails, documenting it, being dicks...... The better.


 Last edited by: bux-bux on Dec. 22, 2021, 5:54 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 22, 2021, 6:11 p.m.
Posts: 2467
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

Couldn't agree more. For a comparison we are all more used to. What would you think if a trials moto was going up the downhill mtb trails? They are totally capable of doing it but I don't see them doing it as they tend to respect the fact that those trails were built for a different purpose. In Squamish, the trials motos build their own uphill challenges. If emopeds want harder uphills, they will have to build them - plain and simple. They can designate them and mtb riders will have to respect that they are for a different purpose and resist the temptation to descend them. If Emopeds want to ride the coat tails of mtb, they have to respect the etiquette.

Hasn't there been issues in Squam and Brit tho with mtb'ers using/taking over trials trails? I just think the lack of clear direction from the land managers is what will allow or is allowing problems to develop.

Dec. 22, 2021, 7:45 p.m.
Posts: 750
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

Trials and MTB have gotten along fine in Squamish. The occasional screw up by one party or another (from both groups)  usually gets smoothed pretty quick. In Valleycliffe ,most bikers know to expect trials riders. It's also really easy to hear them coming and make space.

The thing is that ultimately both groups have pretty clear boundaries, and when someone steps out of line, they get corrected by their OWN peers pretty quick. I've seen Trials riders call their own out for tearing up trails near Alice Lake and MTBs call out their own for expecting priority on Valleycliffe slabs or lumping trials in with motos. For the most part, each have their own preferred lines, and interactions are rare.

Now if only the people pushing ebikes the hardest and loudest spoke up with a bit of common sense etiquette guidelines, that would be great. But nope...just more look at me! I can climb Credit Line! Yeaaahhhhh me!! 

The vast majority of people I've met on ebikes have been great - just like the vast majority on MTB or Trials. The difference is that there is a vacuum of leadership for ebike users, and a few crappy over-exposed examples giving people stupid ideas.

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