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ebikes on the Shore

April 9, 2021, 7:16 p.m.
Posts: 1624
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

I agree with everything you say. That being said, hikers and bikers aren't going to want to go around trying to figure out what sort of motorized contraption idiots are riding. Moto trials riders have worked hard to maintain their relationships with other trail riders. Emtb riders relationship with other trail users is a work in progress but based on this thread there has been substantial good and bad experiences. Idiots riding motorcycles that look sort of like bikes on multiuse trails is going to degrade that relationship. 

My point is that the onus is on etmb users to maintain their access to trails, not the other way around. Watching these knuckleheads in the video makes me feel confident that these contraptions aren't going to degrade mtb access but certainly will degrade motorized access (emtb). As a mountain biker, this video actually makes me feel more confident in the security of our trail access.

What I really don't understand is why emtb users don't just want a throttle? How annoying that you have to spin pedals to engage your motor. I kind of wonder how long emtb will last before everyone is just getting something with pegs instead of pedals, a bigger motor and battery.

Yeah that's a fair point and I agree that they need to step up to protect their own interests. However I also think that the rest of the mtb community shouldn't be running to stick a knife in the back of legitimate ebikers that are playing by the rules. Those Suron/throttle controlled twits can get fucked for sure tho.

April 9, 2021, 9:55 p.m.
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Rightly or wrongly, the overall impression I get from this thread, is that eMTB riders are or should be considered douche bags until they prove themselves innocent?   How this is to be done, seems unclear.

Presumably all or most eMTB riders are dirt bags because whoever stoops to riding an eMTB are entitled, weak willed individuals who can't or won't man up and earn their ride and want to rub everyone else's noses in the dirt while they destroy the very trails that only real riders care for and protect?

There also appears to be a missing acknowledgement (by some, but not all) that any group of people (whether they be mountain bikers or not) usually have a bell curve of sinners and saints, and it is always the assholes, who give any group a bad reputation.  Also, that there are likely to be good and bad in both groups of powered and non-powered riders in equivalent proportion.   

Don't have a motor on that bike; well go right ahead and keep roosting and skidding the fuck out of those berms and Strava the hell out of Bobsled and run my novice friend off the trail, at least you don't ride an eMTB. 

That may sound a little harsh, however, as a recent returnee to "mountain stunt biking" and a very new eMTB rider, a lot of the comments appear to give that impression.

Also, I'm not sure why there should be a special onus on riders like myself to maintain access to trails, that would be any different from other riders, and what would that actually entail?

April 10, 2021, 4:25 a.m.
Posts: 1000
Joined: May 11, 2018

I think you summed it up pretty well knnn. I also think if you went on a hiking website, you would find similar sentiments there about mountain bikers - and id agree. That's why there are threads on here encouraging mountain bikers not to be entitled pricks when they interact with other trail users. That's also why I slow down or stop when I interact with a hiker on a multiuse trail.  We also have threads on not braiding trails and not being a strava douche. Users here have varying views on these topics - That's the point of a forum. 

That being said, you are an ebiker posting in a cycling forum. If I went as a cyclist and started posting in hiking forums, I'd probably find many hikers who weren't all that crazy about mountainbikers. That's not to say all mountainbikers are douchebags, but I suspect their perspective would be, as you put it bikers "are or should be considered douche bags until they prove themselves innocent"

I have thought a lot about ebikes as they seem to irritate me and I have tried to figure out why. There seem to be two things that get under my skin about them. 

#1 they want to be considered just another form of cycling. The bikes are marketed as the "evolution of cycling." Sorry, I just don't agree. It's motorized. The fact that it is a shitty little motor and the throttle is built into the pedals doesn't make it a bike. A simple mod, and you are riding what was in the video posted. That being said, I'm happy ebikers like riding their motorized bikes, but it's not a bicycle. 

#2 because ebikers want everyone to consider them cyclists, they also want to be entitled to all the trail/path access cyclists have. I don't agree with this either. We have all been worried that the trail access that has be so hard to earn will be ruined by adding motorized bikes, especially as they get more powerful or as people mod them. What this video demonstrated to me is that as motorized bikes are added to trails, mountain bikers probably won't be penalized, it will actually be the ebiker with the wimpy motor. If we see lots of electric motor contraptions all over hiking and biking trails, the knee jerk reaction will likely be - no motors; period.

My comment was simply that it is not my responsibility as a cyclist to protect the trail use rights of ebikes. The people who should be worried about bigger and more powerful ebikes/emotorcycles coming along are riders like you who want access to non-motorized trails because you opted for a motorized contraption that has a wimpy motor and the throttle in the pedals. If electric motorized contraptions become a bigger problem, no one is going to care what type of motor you have, they will just end up banning motors I suspect. 

Your last comment was that you didn't think there should be a special onus on you as an ebiker to maintain access to the trails. I find that weird. Mountain bikers have only gotten access to where it is through hard work and promoting the activity. Ebikers will have to do the same for themselves. In the early days of ebikes (that we are still in) trail access is not a huge issue for you all because the ebikes are only starting to get powerful and the numbers are low. As numbers increase and especially the number of people riding things that resemble your ebike but are way more powerful and have a throttle on the handlebar, you may find that your access becomes in question. Same thing for city paths and bike lanes.

Your activity is in its infancy and where it ends up is anyone's guess. The only way it ends up somewhere you want it to will be through advocacy, and the onus is on riders like you if you want a say in it.

April 10, 2021, 8:16 a.m.
Posts: 1992
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: knnn

Rightly or wrongly, the overall impression I get from this thread, is that eMTB riders are or should be considered douche bags until they prove themselves innocent?   How this is to be done, seems unclear.

Presumably all or most eMTB riders are dirt bags because whoever stoops to riding an eMTB are entitled, weak willed individuals who can't or won't man up and earn their ride and want to rub everyone else's noses in the dirt while they destroy the very trails that only real riders care for and protect?

There also appears to be a missing acknowledgement (by some, but not all) that any group of people (whether they be mountain bikers or not) usually have a bell curve of sinners and saints, and it is always the assholes, who give any group a bad reputation.  Also, that there are likely to be good and bad in both groups of powered and non-powered riders in equivalent proportion.   

Don't have a motor on that bike; well go right ahead and keep roosting and skidding the fuck out of those berms and Strava the hell out of Bobsled and run my novice friend off the trail, at least you don't ride an eMTB. 

That may sound a little harsh, however, as a recent returnee to "mountain stunt biking" and a very new eMTB rider, a lot of the comments appear to give that impression.

Also, I'm not sure why there should be a special onus on riders like myself to maintain access to trails, that would be any different from other riders, and what would that actually entail?

People’s anecdotes about how eMTB riders are assholes vs regular riders are about as useful as people anecdotes about how BMW drivers don’t use turn signals. I wouldn’t give it much thought. 

IMO these things are (currently) basically mountain bikes but they’re a little different. The onus is on you as a rider to be aware of those differences and not cause shit if you want to be welcomed on official trails.

Over here, they’re not noticeable. Over there most of your trails are jammed up with big city traffic bullshit already so additional conflict from the differences between mountain bikes and mopeds is basically inevitable makin it’s all the more important to follow good etiquette. 

Your argument about being shitty being okay as long as you ride a regular bike is a red herring - no responsible rider thinks those things are okay. Who is making that arguement?

April 10, 2021, 9:06 a.m.
Posts: 1624
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: knnn

Also, I'm not sure why there should be a special onus on riders like myself to maintain access to trails, that would be any different from other riders, and what would that actually entail?

It's not so much that the onus is on ebikers to maintain access to trails, but there are two distinct points in regards to that. The first is that all riders should be giving back to the trails in some manner - in your case I think most people here are aware that you've put in more than your fair share of time. The second is that if ebikers don't want to lose their access to the trails then it is incumbent upon them to police themselves and make sure as a group that they are not being perceived as a nuisance by most other trail users. If ebike numbers go up noticeably and as a group their behaviour tends to be disruptive then a lot of other trail users may begin to complain which could affect your access. I don't have a problem sharing the trails with ebikers as long as they display good etiquette, but if the majority of interactions I have with ebikers tends towards the negative then my view about sharing the trails with them will probably change. 

So far I think what's lacking is pr/info by land owners and trail org's on the acceptable use of ebikes on the trail network.

April 12, 2021, 12:44 p.m.
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Some well though out and respectful dialogue here, thanks.

I guess where I am coming from is that I have ridden mountain bikes for almost 20 years and still feel that I am a cyclist. I don't feel that the addition of an electric motor to provide an assist (not a throttle), changes the nature of the beast to any significant degree; for example compared to someone who decides to buy a hyper light bike to sprint up hills or a rider who shuttles a mountain. Therefore, I don't see how the addition of the electrical assist would change or increase my obligations in any way that would not already apply to all responsible riders.

Rightly or wrongly I feel there is a perception that if you ride an eMTB you are less likely to give back to the trails or more likely to act in an irresponsible manner, which from my personal perspective rankles a little, but I understand it and the concerns expressed here are not unreasonable. I guess only time will tell if it turns out to be true and we as a sub set of riders would then have to take responsibility of our actions. However, considering we are talking about changing human behavior, I recognize that the prognosis might not be good. :/

@tashi; I was just trying to make the point (poorly) that acting in an irresponsible manner is not the exclusive domain of the eMTB crowd.

PS Odd, I wonder why my post count is only 9 and it says I joined in 2017?


 Last edited by: knnn on April 12, 2021, 12:45 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 17, 2021, 7:18 a.m.
Posts: 1992
Joined: April 25, 2003

Yeah, riding moto on bike trails totally isn’t the end game here:

“Yes, Boxxbike has pedals and yes it is an off-road enduro moped that looks like a mountain electric bike or downhill special. Thanks to this appearance, there is no problem with ordinary hikers, dog walkers, runners, horseback riders...”

“With this new Boxxbike, we open up the possibility of riding in open terrain, both on an enduro or cross motorcycle, as well as on single cycling trails.”

And their videos are all of a dude ripping it up with motos then seamlessly hopping onto mountain bike trails, no pedaling involved.

But sure, let’s keep pretending that these are going to stay mountain bikes with a little helper motor.  Gotta GROW THE SPORT RIGHT?

http://boxxbike.com/


 Last edited by: tashi on April 17, 2021, 7:19 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 17, 2021, 7:55 a.m.
Posts: 780
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: tashi

Yeah, riding moto on bike trails totally isn’t the end game here:

“Yes, Boxxbike has pedals and yes it is an off-road enduro moped that looks like a mountain electric bike or downhill special. Thanks to this appearance, there is no problem with ordinary hikers, dog walkers, runners, horseback riders...”

“With this new Boxxbike, we open up the possibility of riding in open terrain, both on an enduro or cross motorcycle, as well as on single cycling trails.”

And their videos are all of a dude ripping it up with motos then seamlessly hopping onto mountain bike trails, no pedaling involved.

But sure, let’s keep pretending that these are going to stay mountain bikes with a little helper motor. Gotta GROW THE SPORT RIGHT?

http://boxxbike.com/

Wow what a junky POS. The non-committal person who buys this, you already know what he's like. Imagine comparing this thing side by side with the KTM and thinking yeah the crap e-bike is the way to go to save $2k. 


 Last edited by: craw on April 17, 2021, 8 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
May 7, 2021, 8:58 a.m.
Posts: 14378
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

https://www.nsnews.com/local-news/north-shore-rescue-pulls-unconscious-73-year-old-e-biker-from-the-bush-3755992

May 7, 2021, 9:36 a.m.
Posts: 112
Joined: Aug. 11, 2015

There are consequences to removing barriers

May 7, 2021, 12:26 p.m.
Posts: 898
Joined: March 15, 2013

before

Posted by: TheWasp

There are consequences to removing barriers

Or maybe accidents happen regardless what kind of bike you're on. I rode my hardtail on al

Quote from the guys daughter on Facebook.

"this was my dad....so grateful he was found.....he just didn't come home and my mom wasn't home when he had headed out. He has done this trail a million times."

May 8, 2021, 9:10 a.m.
Posts: 112
Joined: Aug. 11, 2015

Posted by: thaaad

before

Posted by: TheWasp

There are consequences to removing barriers

Or maybe accidents happen regardless what kind of bike you're on. I rode my hardtail on al

Quote from the guys daughter on Facebook.

"this was my dad....so grateful he was found.....he just didn't come home and my mom wasn't home when he had headed out. He has done this trail a million times."

"Or" or "also" ?

May 8, 2021, 6:15 p.m.
Posts: 898
Joined: March 15, 2013

how did my post get so fucked up, there are random words everywhere and half my sentence got cut off lol

June 20, 2021, 1:13 a.m.
Posts: 1677
Joined: July 11, 2014

Went for a ride at Diamondhead in Squamish today, first up there since last August, and wow I honestly think I saw as many (or more) ebikes than I did normal bikes. There were two groups that looked like noobs being guided (Nike shoes, gym shorts etc), ok whatever, but so many average joe types in their 30's/40's. I haven't noticed that much of an uptick on the shore. Maybe it was an anomaly.

Really is a perfect place for ebike laps, fire road climb to descents, no traversing required like Fromme/Seymour.

Aug. 12, 2021, 8:20 a.m.
Posts: 290
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Beachman.ca

Coming to a bike lane near you, or is it a motor vehicle in traffic?  220 pound bicycle......

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