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ebikes on the Shore

March 26, 2021, 7:58 p.m.
Posts: 65
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: thaaad

dirt·bag

/ˈdərtbaɡ/

nounderogatory•informal

noun: dirtbag; plural noun: dirtbags; noun: dirt-bag; plural noun: dirt-bags

a very unkempt or unpleasant person.

Well, considering how judgemental and unpleasant a lot of people in the MTB community seem to be I would say it still might be a dirtbag sport.

100% agree. 

Seems to be getting worse lately with the influx of new riders. Ear buds in, not stopping or slowing for anyone, turbo boost mode cutting cheat lines trying to imitate the latest Instagram shredder. 

But I am also seeing it with regular bikes as well. Just general dbag behavior. 

I dunno, I am in no hurry, I wait for people all the time going up or down.

March 27, 2021, 7:52 a.m.
Posts: 803
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: martin

Posted by: cerealkilla_

The next wave is here. There's a couple of DBs on full electric dirtbikes (class 3 ebike throttle twisters) ripping up the trails in Squamish. Looks like 3 inch tires - so perfect for accessing riding trails and ripping the dirt off them. Not electric trials bikes, and not pedelecs.

Been spotted in the Alice Lake Park, district trails and bike paths, private lands where dirt-bikes are prohibited, and on trails recognized by most rational residents as MTB-Trials only based on user-group agreements.

As more of these things are sold without any sort of guidance on their use from the sellers and marketers, it's just going to get messier - and the trails and trail access will suffer the most.

It was inevitable, but most people seem to ignore this since the beginning. Once you put a motor on something you can be sure they will only keep getting stronger and faster. The cyclepaths here are full of e-scooters and e-motorcycles that look like small moto gp bikes and they whizz by quite fast. But since they have pedals, they're "legal".

Since the motors and batteries will keep getting smaller and more integrated, I'm having a hard time figuring out how trail centres will enforce a no-e-motorcycle policy if they can't differentiate them from ebikes. (Because yes, here in Quebec everywhere you ride (90% of the trails) you have to do it at a trail centre and pay a day pass even if there is no shuttle or lift, and they have people patrolling to check tickets and stuff.)

This is not the mountain biking experience I signed up for when I started 25 years ago! 😅 Sorry for the rant!

Just imagine having a conversation with one of these guys. You already know how it's going to go. Oblivious, entitled and defensive with limited understanding of the level of cooperation between communities required to build and maintain the trails or etiquette on how to use those trails.

Out of curiosity, what brand of class 3 ebikes were they riding and are those available at a local retailer? Would it be reasonable to have new purchasers of these machines sign a waiver or something?


 Last edited by: craw on March 27, 2021, 7:54 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 27, 2021, 2:16 p.m.
Posts: 2201
Joined: Feb. 4, 2007

https://youtu.be/u5SKQuHsRPQ

March 27, 2021, 2:21 p.m.
Posts: 2201
Joined: Feb. 4, 2007

Posted by: craw

Posted by: martin

Posted by: cerealkilla_

The next wave is here. There's a couple of DBs on full electric dirtbikes (class 3 ebike throttle twisters) ripping up the trails in Squamish. Looks like 3 inch tires - so perfect for accessing riding trails and ripping the dirt off them. Not electric trials bikes, and not pedelecs.

Been spotted in the Alice Lake Park, district trails and bike paths, private lands where dirt-bikes are prohibited, and on trails recognized by most rational residents as MTB-Trials only based on user-group agreements.

As more of these things are sold without any sort of guidance on their use from the sellers and marketers, it's just going to get messier - and the trails and trail access will suffer the most.

It was inevitable, but most people seem to ignore this since the beginning. Once you put a motor on something you can be sure they will only keep getting stronger and faster. The cyclepaths here are full of e-scooters and e-motorcycles that look like small moto gp bikes and they whizz by quite fast. But since they have pedals, they're "legal".

Since the motors and batteries will keep getting smaller and more integrated, I'm having a hard time figuring out how trail centres will enforce a no-e-motorcycle policy if they can't differentiate them from ebikes. (Because yes, here in Quebec everywhere you ride (90% of the trails) you have to do it at a trail centre and pay a day pass even if there is no shuttle or lift, and they have people patrolling to check tickets and stuff.)

This is not the mountain biking experience I signed up for when I started 25 years ago! 😅 Sorry for the rant!

Just imagine having a conversation with one of these guys. You already know how it's going to go. Oblivious, entitled and defensive with limited understanding of the level of cooperation between communities required to build and maintain the trails or etiquette on how to use those trails.

Out of curiosity, what brand of class 3 ebikes were they riding and are those available at a local retailer? Would it be reasonable to have new purchasers of these machines sign a waiver or something?

Ya too bad, those guys are on surron's, I am sure they will get educated soon enough on where they should be with those, but also a few trail builders in squamish use Surron's for trail building. They definitely can roost as in stock form they can do 80km/hr and are built to go fast on roads. Those are definitely moto's, not e-mtb's.

March 27, 2021, 2:38 p.m.
Posts: 740
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

They are indeed riding Surrons as Dave points out.

What's worse, is that they have been trying to claim status as trials bikes, even though they lack soft tires at low psi. This has pissed off the trials club greatly. Trials bikes are permitted by Squamish bylaws in (most) areas where MTBs also ride, such as Valleycliff and Cheema Lands. However, user club agreements and district  bylaws (where applicable) are against dirtbikes in such areas. 
This is a good example of a few selfish riders endangering trail access (and trail integrity) for all

Dave, you potentially have the best opportunity to be an influential and positive spokesperson for responsible eMTB riding. Any ideas how you (or others) might educate these folks (and the others that may likely follow them)?

March 28, 2021, 1:51 p.m.
Posts: 171
Joined: April 26, 2004

^ weird choice of definition of Dirtbag

this is what is usually meant by the term

from urban dictionary

"Dirtbag
A person who is committed to a given (usually extreme) lifestyle to the point of abandoning employment and other societal norms in order to pursue said lifestyle. Dirtbags can be distinguished from hippies by the fact that dirtbags have a specific reason for their living communaly and generally non-hygenically; dirtbags are seeking to spend all of their moments pursuing their lifestyle
The best examples of dirtbags and dirtbagging are the communities of climbers that can be found in any of the major climbing areas of North America--Squamish, BC; Yosemite, CA; Joshua Tree, CA; etc."

Yes, by that definition I was a Dirtbag in the 1980s and 1990s, but I don't think anyone around here that pays rent or towards a mortgage classifies as a Dirtbag anymore.

However, if you are couch surfing or have a secret tent site (thinking of you JF and Roberto) to ride the Shore , you may qualify

the previous definition seems to have confused dirtbag with "douche bag"


 Last edited by: taprider on March 28, 2021, 1:56 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 28, 2021, 4:51 p.m.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

^^^

Yup

March 28, 2021, 8:05 p.m.
Posts: 906
Joined: March 15, 2013

I just grabbed the very first one from Oxford dictionary from Google.

April 8, 2021, 1:34 p.m.
Posts: 1683
Joined: July 11, 2014

Funny how concerns from a few years back about emtbs such as climbing trail/access road conflict with normal bikers/hikers and more importantly blurring of lines on what an emtb is are actually coming to fruition in the Sea to Sky despite being dismissed as "whataboutism" but emtb advocates the entire time. I'm sure the industry pushing these rigs will help solve this problem through advocacy and funding non-profit trail associations right?

Here's an example from the UK where the risk around trail access is exponentially higher than here:


 Last edited by: grambo on April 8, 2021, 1:35 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 8, 2021, 2:39 p.m.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

So you think using an example of guys on throttle controlled electric motorcycles - that's what those Suron's are - is equivalent to people using ebikes? I didn't watch 100% of the vid but I didn't see these guys acting like jerks towards any of the other trail users. I fully agree on using good trail etiquette and that electric motorcycles have no place on mtb trails, but let's at least use good arguments if we're going to talk about the problems with ebikes. That video isn't one.

April 8, 2021, 7:01 p.m.
Posts: 1481
Joined: Nov. 8, 2003

That's a good point. What is an effective way to get the point across to fuck off when you inevitably bump into someone roosting class 2 & 3's on bicycle trails? 

In that video is the interaction you'd expect, the cyclist tells them "you'll be crushed if the ranger catches you riding those up here", the Surrons guy yells after him "yeah, well they'll have to catch us first! Hahaha". Then heads out for a lap destroying the lips on the jumps.

April 8, 2021, 7:27 p.m.
Posts: 2069
Joined: April 25, 2003

Throttle controlled eMTB’s (or dirt bikes, seems like it’s almost a distinction without a difference at this point) being ridden on official mountain bike trails by people who don’t give a fuck is exactly what some of us are concerned about actually.  A bike that can go on mountain bike trails well that has a throttle is the obvious endgame here. 

And it’s happening. Awesome.

April 8, 2021, 7:48 p.m.
Posts: 1077
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

So you think using an example of guys on throttle controlled electric motorcycles - that's what those Suron's are - is equivalent to people using ebikes? I didn't watch 100% of the vid but I didn't see these guys acting like jerks towards any of the other trail users. I fully agree on using good trail etiquette and that electric motorcycles have no place on mtb trails, but let's at least use good arguments if we're going to talk about the problems with ebikes. That video isn't one.

Well, given that this is exactly what is happening in squamish, I think the video provides a visual for people to understand what is out there that some people consider "bicycles"

I couldn't give a crap what ebikers call their contraptions, but I can see trail organizations quickly banning anything with a motor if ebikers don't take the initiative and tidy up their denominations.  Obviously this group of "cyclists" thought their motorbikes were "bikes". I doubt many of the other trail users would agree. Those guys weren't pricks and they slowed down for walkers but never the less, those things do not belong on the same trails as bikes and hikers. Motocross trails would be appropriate.

April 8, 2021, 9:07 p.m.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

My point is that we shouldn't be lumping in dirt bikes - which is what those Suron's are, with regular emtb's. In Squamish there are a fair number of trails that are open to all users, including gas powered trials bikes so I don't know if that's the problem or if people on dirt bikes are crossing over to mtb trails. If there's a concern about dirt bikes on mtb trails then it should be taken up with the appropriate land manager so they can deal with it. If people don't think the land manager is enforcing the rules then raise more noise - squeaky wheel gets the grease.

April 9, 2021, 6:16 p.m.
Posts: 1077
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

My point is that we shouldn't be lumping in dirt bikes - which is what those Suron's are, with regular emtb's. In Squamish there are a fair number of trails that are open to all users, including gas powered trials bikes so I don't know if that's the problem or if people on dirt bikes are crossing over to mtb trails. If there's a concern about dirt bikes on mtb trails then it should be taken up with the appropriate land manager so they can deal with it. If people don't think the land manager is enforcing the rules then raise more noise - squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I agree with everything you say. That being said, hikers and bikers aren't going to want to go around trying to figure out what sort of motorized contraption idiots are riding. Moto trials riders have worked hard to maintain their relationships with other trail riders. Emtb riders relationship with other trail users is a work in progress but based on this thread there has been substantial good and bad experiences. Idiots riding motorcycles that look sort of like bikes on multiuse trails is going to degrade that relationship. 

My point is that the onus is on etmb users to maintain their access to trails, not the other way around. Watching these knuckleheads in the video makes me feel confident that these contraptions aren't going to degrade mtb access but certainly will degrade motorized access (emtb). As a mountain biker, this video actually makes me feel more confident in the security of our trail access.

What I really don't understand is why emtb users don't just want a throttle? How annoying that you have to spin pedals to engage your motor. I kind of wonder how long emtb will last before everyone is just getting something with pegs instead of pedals, a bigger motor and battery.

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