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ebikes on the Shore

March 18, 2021, 3:52 p.m.
Posts: 16696
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: thaaad

It's not about being friends... and it's less of an acknowledgment thing and more of a mutual respect thing. Basically the reason why turn signals and brake lights exist in cars, make people aware of what others (and yourself) are doing for the safety and consideration of everyone when you are in public.

I'm sure nobody appreciates being passed too close at too high of a speed on the highway. Just have some courtesy, let people know you are passing, slow as you go by and give both of you a little room.

It's really not hard at all to treat others with respect, ebikes, cars, sidewalks, whatever.

This ... and it also applies to ebikes tailgating me when I'm huffing my way up something like the GSM climb.  My goal is to be able to clean that climb regularly without stopping, and I don't need some dumbass with their high pitched motor whining away, nipping at my back wheel as a not-so-subtle hint that they want me to stop and let them pass.  Trust me, I know you're there, and if I spot a wide part of the trail where you can fit, than I will hug the edge and let you pass.  Until then, stay the hell back and wait your turn.  It's similar to the logic for the "climber has right of way" rule when passing on a bi-directional trail.  Climber gets to continue because it's much harder for the climber to stop, reset and restart than the descender.  The ebike can stop and restart more easily than the non-e-climber.

March 18, 2021, 4:16 p.m.
Posts: 219
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

The post didn't talk about crappy etiquette. No tail gating or tight pass mentioned, just the lack of an acknowledgement. 

A crappy pass while from an ebike or not is deserving of slagging the person, no argument from me on that. But if someone slags on a safe pass simply because the other person is on a ebike then I'd suggest you're giving too many f$*ks and should find something else to worry about.

March 18, 2021, 4:59 p.m.
Posts: 1754
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: earleb

Why do people get their panties in a wad about riders not acknowledging others??? Every rider on the trail isn't yer bud we don't all need to be friends.

You should definitely run for social coordinator of a local trail org, sounds like you'd be great at it.

March 18, 2021, 6:42 p.m.
Posts: 906
Joined: March 15, 2013

Posted by: earleb

The post didn't talk about crappy etiquette. No tail gating or tight pass mentioned, just the lack of an acknowledgement. 

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post,  I never meant to come across like a dick. 

I am a friendly guy so I like to give some recognition like a smile, nod, or hello but I don't mind if someone doesn't acknowledge me.  Just strangers going about their lives :)

March 18, 2021, 9:54 p.m.
Posts: 8
Joined: Jan. 19, 2004

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: thaaad

It's not about being friends... and it's less of an acknowledgment thing and more of a mutual respect thing. Basically the reason why turn signals and brake lights exist in cars, make people aware of what others (and yourself) are doing for the safety and consideration of everyone when you are in public.

I'm sure nobody appreciates being passed too close at too high of a speed on the highway. Just have some courtesy, let people know you are passing, slow as you go by and give both of you a little room.

It's really not hard at all to treat others with respect, ebikes, cars, sidewalks, whatever.

This ... and it also applies to ebikes tailgating me when I'm huffing my way up something like the GSM climb. My goal is to be able to clean that climb regularly without stopping, and I don't need some dumbass with their high pitched motor whining away, nipping at my back wheel as a not-so-subtle hint that they want me to stop and let them pass. Trust me, I know you're there, and if I spot a wide part of the trail where you can fit, than I will hug the edge and let you pass. Until then, stay the hell back and wait your turn. It's similar to the logic for the "climber has right of way" rule when passing on a bi-directional trail. Climber gets to continue because it's much harder for the climber to stop, reset and restart than the descender. The ebike can stop and restart more easily than the non-e-climber.

Totally agree - this extends to all types of bikes, on the way up and down. No matter how fast you think you are, there is always someone faster and sometimes they lack etiquette and common sense. Everyone has a story about "that person"!

But you make a good point - ebikes have an advantage on the way up and there is never an excuse for effing up another rider's line because if it, or putting pressure on them on a tough climb, or any climb really.


 Last edited by: Mulletron on March 18, 2021, 10:01 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 19, 2021, 7:18 a.m.
Posts: 875
Joined: Jan. 7, 2007

Braap Braap!

March 19, 2021, 10 a.m.
Posts: 219
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: thaaad

It's not about being friends... and it's less of an acknowledgment thing and more of a mutual respect thing. Basically the reason why turn signals and brake lights exist in cars, make people aware of what others (and yourself) are doing for the safety and consideration of everyone when you are in public.

I'm sure nobody appreciates being passed too close at too high of a speed on the highway. Just have some courtesy, let people know you are passing, slow as you go by and give both of you a little room.

It's really not hard at all to treat others with respect, ebikes, cars, sidewalks, whatever.

This ... and it also applies to ebikes tailgating me when I'm huffing my way up something like the GSM climb.  My goal is to be able to clean that climb regularly without stopping, and I don't need some dumbass with their high pitched motor whining away, nipping at my back wheel as a not-so-subtle hint that they want me to stop and let them pass.  Trust me, I know you're there, and if I spot a wide part of the trail where you can fit, than I will hug the edge and let you pass.  Until then, stay the hell back and wait your turn.  It's similar to the logic for the "climber has right of way" rule when passing on a bi-directional trail.  Climber gets to continue because it's much harder for the climber to stop, reset and restart than the descender.  The ebike can stop and restart more easily than the non-e-climber.

I mostly agree with you, although I would rather let an e-bike get past me than have listen to one whining behind my back wheel. My question is are you more willing to stop and let a faster rider pass you on a climb if they are on a pedal-powered bike instead of a motorized one?  I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just interested in the answer.

March 19, 2021, 12:24 p.m.
Posts: 906
Joined: March 15, 2013

100% I will let people pass if they are faster, on the up or the down. 

I don't want someone I don't know or trust hanging on my wheel, and I'm sure they don't want to follow someone yet don't trust down the trail. 

Except my friends,  I will gladly hold them up any time just to fuck with them :)

March 19, 2021, 2:20 p.m.
Posts: 2273
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Posted by: tashi

Yeah with the one I rode, while it got me access to more descents in the same time with only slightly more effort the descending  wasn’t nearly as good (slower too). On those trails I’d way rather ride a regular bike and shred harder.

Both climbing and descending, I find that speed and enjoyment varies depending on terrain on an e-bike. 30-40% faster overall on average checks out for me (maybe slightly higher) IF I'm going up something like the climbing trail on Fromme...your gains aren't as drastic on slower, technical trails, whether up or down. Where you can realize more speed gains are when you're on climbs like Mtn Hwy (or roads, of course) and riding down trails like Bobsled or Expresso - you have extra acceleration out of corners and don't lose as much maneuverability because the turns aren't as tight and sections aren't as technical.

However, up the climbing trail and down Executioner to Dreamweaver, you gain less time on an e-bike. If there's traffic on the climbing trail I go up extremely carefully and do my utmost to wait to even ask to pass until it's a good time. Honestly, I'll sit back there as long as it takes. Buddy up front is working hard on their regular bike - I've been there, I don't need to be the prick trying to get by as fast as possible. 

Having now been passed by plenty of e-bikes on Fromme and Seymour, I can say it's irritating when they're not courteous - I've noticed this more on Seymour lately, where every time out there seem to be quite a few e-bikes going by on the climbs and not only are most of them not waiting patiently or asking to pass, they're also not saying hi, thanking me or even acknowledging my presence. If you're an e-biker reading this, please take note: whether you like it or not, you're part of many other trail users' early impressions of e-bikers, and it IS partly your responsibility to be thoughtful and courteous so you undo people's preconceptions. It's up to regular riders and hikers, too, but e-bikers are the new kid on the block, so they have more work to do. This is not just noobs, either - some of these riders look like they know what they're doing, but they're mentally checking out when they get on the e-bike, and it's not helping the issue.

March 19, 2021, 2:27 p.m.
Posts: 2273
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Posted by: earleb

Posted by: grambo

Have definitely seen the turds blasting up Mountain Highway and Old Buck on turbo mode with head down not acknowledging others (some must be self aware and realize they will not be received kindly).

Why do people get their panties in a wad about riders not acknowledging others??? Every rider on the trail isn't yer bud we don't all need to be friends.

Motorbikers on the road, Jeep drivers, Land Rovers, even most road riders like to give quick waves. I do it in my neighbourhood when I'm out walking the dog, just to make sure people know I'm a friendly presence. 'I see you' is the main point, not 'let's stop and talk about the weather or make useless chit chat'. It helps with community spirit and I think most people appreciate being seen and acknowledged. I totally understand some people like to get in their own little zone when they're on a ride sometimes, but I don't think it's too much to flick a quick wave, tilt your head, wink, whatever.

And if someone has just pulled over to let you pass, no matter what you're both riding (or if one is a hiker, etc) I think it's even more important.

March 19, 2021, 3:15 p.m.
Posts: 8
Joined: Jan. 19, 2004

Posted by: pete@nsmb.com

Posted by: tashi

Yeah with the one I rode, while it got me access to more descents in the same time with only slightly more effort the descending  wasn’t nearly as good (slower too). On those trails I’d way rather ride a regular bike and shred harder.

Both climbing and descending, I find that speed and enjoyment varies depending on terrain on an e-bike. 30-40% faster overall on average checks out for me (maybe slightly higher) IF I'm going up something like the climbing trail on Fromme...your gains aren't as drastic on slower, technical trails, whether up or down. Where you can realize more speed gains are when you're on climbs like Mtn Hwy (or roads, of course) and riding down trails like Bobsled or Expresso - you have extra acceleration out of corners and don't lose as much maneuverability because the turns aren't as tight and sections aren't as technical.

However, up the climbing trail and down Executioner to Dreamweaver, you gain less time on an e-bike. If there's traffic on the climbing trail I go up extremely carefully and do my utmost to wait to even ask to pass until it's a good time. Honestly, I'll sit back there as long as it takes. Buddy up front is working hard on their regular bike - I've been there, I don't need to be the prick trying to get by as fast as possible. 

Having now been passed by plenty of e-bikes on Fromme and Seymour, I can say it's irritating when they're not courteous - I've noticed this more on Seymour lately, where every time out there seem to be quite a few e-bikes going by on the climbs and not only are most of them not waiting patiently or asking to pass, they're also not saying hi, thanking me or even acknowledging my presence. If you're an e-biker reading this, please take note: whether you like it or not, you're part of many other trail users' early impressions of e-bikers, and it IS partly your responsibility to be thoughtful and courteous so you undo people's preconceptions. It's up to regular riders and hikers, too, but e-bikers are the new kid on the block, so they have more work to do. This is not just noobs, either - some of these riders look like they know what they're doing, but they're mentally checking out when they get on the e-bike, and it's not helping the issue.

Amen.

March 20, 2021, 9:52 a.m.
Posts: 391
Joined: Aug. 10, 2012

Posted by: pete@nsmb.com

....This is not just noobs, either - some of these riders look like they know what they're doing, but they're mentally checking out when they get on the e-bike, and it's not helping the issue.

It's a fact. I had one guy blast past our group of 4 twice on Mtn Hghwy (he did Bobsled before heading up to Expresso). Both times without warning and full steam ahead....no acknowledgement at all. The second time I asked him for some warning. He stopped, slowed down and rode with us for a bit...turns out I know him. He apologised and said he just got the bike and was having a a blast....this is a fellow with many years of Shore experience. I was quite quite surprised.


 Last edited by: mudrunner on March 20, 2021, 3:14 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: poor editing and attributing the quote to the correct person.
March 20, 2021, 11:33 a.m.
Posts: 14564
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

Posted by: mudrunner

It's a fact. I had one guy blast past our group of 4 twice on Mtn Hghwy (he did Bobsled before heading up to Expresso). Both times without warning and full steam ahead....no acknowledgement at all. The second time I asked him for some warning. He stopped, slowed down and rode with us for a bit...turns out I know him. He apologised and said he just got the bike and was having a a blast....this is a fellow with many years of Shore experience. I was quite quite surprised.

Most everyone on e-bikes that I know or have spoken to on the trails have been riding for a long time.

I'm more pissed when I'm slogging up a climb and someone flies past me and I see they aren't on an e-bike :)


 Last edited by: DaveM on March 20, 2021, 9:57 p.m., edited 3 times in total.
March 20, 2021, 12:47 p.m.
Posts: 2067
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: mudrunner

Posted by: pete@nsmb.com

Posted by: tashi

....This is not just noobs, either - some of these riders look like they know what they're doing, but they're mentally checking out when they get on the e-bike, and it's not helping the issue.

It's a fact. I had one guy blast past our group of 4 twice on Mtn Hghwy (he did Bobsled before heading up to Expresso). Both times without  warning and full steam ahead....no acknowledgement at all. The second time I asked him for some warning. He stopped, slowed down and rode with us for a bit...turns out I know him.  He apologised and said he just got the bike and was having a a blast....this is a fellow with many years of Shore experience. I was quite quite surprised.

Some odd editing here, I did not say these things.

March 20, 2021, 2:18 p.m.
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: Mulletron

I rode my regular bike today, brought my dogs with me because it is much easier for the older one to keep up. Short ride, just under 6kms, ~260m elevation gain. In and out in 45 minutes, had a meeting cancel and I had a window. I cooked 550 calories. 

When I ride my ebike, I can generally get in 30-40% more trail in the same period of time, and I'll burn about 20% more calories over the same period of time - it's a different kind of workout. Instead of the painful slower cadence, it feels more like riding a road bike or a spin bike. You need to run a cadence north of 70rpm to get into the fun zone on the ebike. My (older) dog doesn't like it as much. 

It is what you make it. I think it is most important to have fun on your bike(s) and spend less time taking the piss out of eachother, unless of course it is earned by being a jerk on the trails, but unfortunately those folks exist on every type of bike out there.

Interesting, I think it might come down to you being more motivated to pedal harder when you see the scenery flying by. I know it seems easier for me to push harder with a tailwind than a headwind. What device are you using to track calories? What were the average heart rates for both of the rides? I only ask because I feel like while my Lezyne bike computer says it uses heart rate to track calories, I can have two rides with similar average HR, but it gives me more "calories" for a road ride vs a mtb ride because I am covering more distance.

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