New posts

ebikes on the Shore

Dec. 10, 2019, 4:47 p.m.
Posts: 128
Joined: May 13, 2014

Posted by: skooks

Posted by: blackfly

Amen.

As I have always contended, if you cannot do the up, you cannot do the down.  The down is no more easy, strenuous or requiring any less physical demand or tone.  Moreover, if the ebike allows one to further, but not faster, what happens if there is a "mechanical"  (or now, "electrical") far in the middle of nowhere?  Hope you have the legs and lungs to pedal or push it out.......

Don't try passing me on the uphill, EVER.

I am super curious about your last sentence. If someone was coming up fast behind you on a (pedal) bike, would you let them pass? Why would it be different if they were on a moped?  I would much rather have them pass me than have to listen to the motor all the way up the hill.

Well, if someone is on a pedal bike and going to pass me on No Quarter or GSM on the up, bravo.  Obviously better cardio and legs than I, and this is from hard work on the up.  I find the idea of an E bike on a up climbing trail the epitome of what is wrong with the concept.  

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: blackfly

I ride Fromme regularly and see at least one or two zip up the road when I get out of D'yer Maker. I think since most new initiates that would buy them are likely to find the sticker shock too much to handle it would be for a limited few, but of the ones I have seen on Fromme: either older types that would be inclined to buy one; a noob with no idea (or whom zips up only to ride the road back down........seen this twice) or riders that motor up as fast as possible to avoid any heckling as they know acceptance is not common. Eagle, for example, allows motos there......have at it. But not Cypress, Fromme, Seymour, Burke or the Woodlot.

I ride mine at Burke and the Woodlot regularly. I ride a red Commencal, introduce yourself sometime.

Oh, and feel free to heckle, I find it laughable.

I ride Burke regularly myself.  I would of thought the sign at the gun club/yellow gate clearly showing no motorized vehicles would of been clear enough.  Guess not.

Dec. 10, 2019, 5:46 p.m.
Posts: 258
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: blackfly

I ride Burke regularly myself.  I would of thought the sign at the gun club/yellow gate clearly showing no motorized vehicles would of been clear enough.  Guess not.

careful, that soapbox you're standing on isn't very stable considering the majority of the trails we all ride were built without any sort of permission.

Dec. 10, 2019, 5:52 p.m.
Posts: 1362
Joined: April 25, 2003

Built without permission, continue to exist at the discretion of the land manager. 

A responsible person would ask themselves if violating their rules would risk that hard-fought access.

Dec. 10, 2019, 6:17 p.m.
Posts: 258
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

Built without permission, continue to exist at the discretion of the land manager. 

A responsible person would ask themselves if violating their rules would risk that hard-fought access.

If ebikers aren't riding like asshats then I don't see them being any risk to trail access. Considering LM's have had to deal with more than enough twits on mtb's over the years, incl rogue building, I'd guess that the bar for shitty ebike behaviour that would risk access for ALL types of bikes is going to be pretty damn high. While I don't always agree with the decisions and actions of LM's, I tend to think that they're smart enough to ban access to ebikes first before they ban access to all bikes. Surely there is a better argument than that to use to hate on ebikers?

Dec. 10, 2019, 6:45 p.m.
Posts: 1362
Joined: April 25, 2003

I bear no animosity towards ebikers so you can quit it with the “hate” term. 

I’m concerned for official access. 

You know your area better than I, hopefully your judgement is sound.

Dec. 10, 2019, 6:58 p.m.
Posts: 258
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

I bear no animosity towards ebikers so you can quit it with the “hate” term. 

I’m concerned for official access. 

You know your area better than I, hopefully your judgement is sound.

Good to know, but I would be remiss in not saying that my impression of the flavour of your posts on the concerns of ebikes tends towards the sour side. That said, I am with you on the point about concern for trail access, I just feel it is more about the way the bikes are used rather than the bikes themselves. That's why trying to have sensible discussion on their use is important. Here on the Shore at least, I don't see it as much of an issue as you do. Considering that most posters on this board seem to be local to BC, without knowing your location is hard to say whether your concern is more justified than my lack of concern.

Dec. 10, 2019, 6:58 p.m.
Posts: 596
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: blackfly

Posted by: skooks

Posted by: blackfly

Amen.

As I have always contended, if you cannot do the up, you cannot do the down. The down is no more easy, strenuous or requiring any less physical demand or tone. Moreover, if the ebike allows one to further, but not faster, what happens if there is a "mechanical" (or now, "electrical") far in the middle of nowhere? Hope you have the legs and lungs to pedal or push it out.......

Don't try passing me on the uphill, EVER.

I am super curious about your last sentence. If someone was coming up fast behind you on a (pedal) bike, would you let them pass? Why would it be different if they were on a moped? I would much rather have them pass me than have to listen to the motor all the way up the hill.

Well, if someone is on a pedal bike and going to pass me on No Quarter or GSM on the up, bravo. Obviously better cardio and legs than I, and this is from hard work on the up. I find the idea of an E bike on a up climbing trail the epitome of what is wrong with the concept.

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: blackfly

I ride Fromme regularly and see at least one or two zip up the road when I get out of D'yer Maker. I think since most new initiates that would buy them are likely to find the sticker shock too much to handle it would be for a limited few, but of the ones I have seen on Fromme: either older types that would be inclined to buy one; a noob with no idea (or whom zips up only to ride the road back down........seen this twice) or riders that motor up as fast as possible to avoid any heckling as they know acceptance is not common. Eagle, for example, allows motos there......have at it. But not Cypress, Fromme, Seymour, Burke or the Woodlot.

I ride mine at Burke and the Woodlot regularly. I ride a red Commencal, introduce yourself sometime.

Oh, and feel free to heckle, I find it laughable.

I ride Burke regularly myself. I would of thought the sign at the gun club/yellow gate clearly showing no motorized vehicles would of been clear enough. Guess not.

It’ crown land. Green light. And has to the previous, you can shove it up your elitist ass.😚


 Last edited by: FLATCH on Dec. 10, 2019, 7:03 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: More humour.
Dec. 10, 2019, 7:29 p.m.
Posts: 1362
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: tashi

I bear no animosity towards ebikers so you can quit it with the “hate” term. 

I’m concerned for official access. 

You know your area better than I, hopefully your judgement is sound.

Good to know, but I would be remiss in not saying that my impression of the flavour of your posts on the concerns of ebikes tends towards the sour side. That said, I am with you on the point about concern for trail access, I just feel it is more about the way the bikes are used rather than the bikes themselves. That's why trying to have sensible discussion on their use is important. Here on the Shore at least, I don't see it as much of an issue as you do. Considering that most posters on this board seem to be local to BC, without knowing your location is hard to say whether your concern is more justified than my lack of concern.

I’m in Victoria. If you want to ride a motorized bike here I hope you chat with someone with local knowledge because there are a few areas where motors will just make a bad access situation worse. 

I’m not 100% positive on these things it’s true, but it’s important to remember that my “sour” tone is entirely related to issues around official access. Not the riders or even the machines themselves (they’re fucking fun!) and not even “rogue” areas. 

There’s lots of land out there, particularly if you have a motor...

Dec. 10, 2019, 7:41 p.m.
Posts: 258
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

I’m in Victoria. If you want to ride a motorized bike here I hope you chat with someone with local knowledge because there are a few areas where motors will just make a bad access situation worse. 

I’m not 100% positive on these things it’s true, but it’s important to remember that my “sour” tone is entirely related to issues around official access. Not the riders or even the machines themselves (they’re fucking fun!) and not even “rogue” areas. 

There’s lots of land out there, particularly if you have a motor...

I'm not on an ebike so no worries there. I agree with you on the local knowledge part too, no matter what someone is riding. Having local knowledge is a great way to make sure people get the most fun out of their trip. Have LM's on the island been vocal about no ebikes on their land?

Dec. 10, 2019, 7:56 p.m.
Posts: 1362
Joined: April 25, 2003

I can't speak to the LM's thoughts re: mopeds.  Much of our official trails in Victoria are in CRD or BC Parks so I assume their policies apply.

Dec. 10, 2019, 8:15 p.m.
Posts: 258
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

I can't speak to the LM's thoughts re: mopeds.  Much of our official trails in Victoria are in CRD or BC Parks so I assume their policies apply.

ok, so then how can you say that "there are a few areas where motors will just make a bad access situation worse"?

Dec. 11, 2019, 10:50 a.m.
Posts: 198
Joined: March 6, 2017

I ride Burke regularly myself. I would of thought the sign at the gun club/yellow gate clearly showing no motorized vehicles would of been clear enough. Guess not.

The irony in the fact that the trail builders on Burke have ebikes is not lost on you it seems.


 Last edited by: T-mack on Dec. 11, 2019, 10:54 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 11, 2019, 10:55 a.m.
Posts: 140
Joined: March 14, 2017

I believe all (or most) of the builders on Burke have ebikes to access the spots they are working on.   The climbs are nasty so ebikes are actually benefiting the trails in this scenario.

Dec. 13, 2019, 7:38 a.m.
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 6, 2019

Posted by: RAHrider

Nice to have you as a new member. I think you have summed up the pluses of an ebike nicely. It sounds like a great activity for you. I think the issues with ebikes are not adressed by your post though.

1-you point out that you like it because you can ride so much more so much faster. That means substantially more trail wear. Do uphills and flat corners need to be built like a flow trail now with bermed corners to account for ebike wear and tear? I think motorcycle enthusiasts would say the exact same things about their KTM's that you said about your ebike (different workout due to weight, can go so far, everything is so fast and fun) but there is a reason we don't let motocross bikes on mtb trails - they cause too much wear. Bike trails are largely made by bikers for bikers on a volunteer basis. Allowing people doing a different sport to use (and wear) the trails is not a forgone conclusion, but the bike industry certainly pushes ebikes as just a better bike and assumes access without finding solutions for the issues such as right of way, climbing a descent trail, increased trail maintenance etc.

2-many riders find the advertising of ebikes as the "evolution of the bicycle" simply wrong. The bike industry uses this argument to assume access for their product to mtb trails. It's frustrating to have to argue against the industry and ebike owners for the sake of trail maintenance and access all the time. You yourself point out that "e-biking is a different bicycle sport than XC, enduro or DH." What would you say if you were riding your DH bike at whistler and an XC rider was climbing the trail? You probably wouldn't appreciate that? It would be nice if the e-bike enthusiasts could have consideration for the decades of hard work that has gone into gaining access and developing the amazing trail networks we enjoy by not assuming access, bringing solutions to the table and not claiming their ebike is the evolution of the bicycle.

This all being said, I am glad you enjoy your ebike. Sounds like the right choice for you. As for your question as to what I would like to see on the shore. I think hiking is a great activity, low impact and should be welcomed. That being said, I don't think they should hike up downhill trails. Same as I shouldn't ride down hiking trails. As for multi-use trails, bikers should show more respect to hikers IMO. Horses are horrible for trails IMO. Luckily they don't love going down the trails on the shore. I have no issue sharing multi-use trails with them either. I put ebikes in with motorcycles. I don't mind them but I wouldn't mind if they were on their own trails either. Again, wouldn't mind sharing multiuse trails with them but I do have concerns about how they will develop (increased power) and how that will affect trails and safety.

Sorry I don't go on the forums every day so please accept my apologies for not responding quicker.

Thank you for pointing out very important information to consider.

1-regarding riding faster on flat and uphill, please understand that if you try to pedal past the motor cutoff at 32 km/h, it is a substantial effort and the damage caused by a regular MTB and an E-bike are pretty much the same, how do I know this? I have ridden dirt bikes for a number of years and you can't get an e-bike to roost no matter what you try because they are pedal assist. I have also been trail building for 20 years (I'm showing my age here!). The biggest challenge as a trail builder is water erosion/water management. If you think that it will increase traffic, that's probably true on easy to medium difficulty trails, however, you still need skills to ride up technical climbs or technical descents so I don't see too many e-bikers going for a black diamond trail unless they know they can ride it, which usually mean that they have ridden it before on a regular MTB. I would certainly take 1000 e-bikers on my trail before I would let a single horseback rider or a dirt bike on the trails as the damage by those is so much greater.

Where I build (Moose Mountain west of Calgary) our challenge is flash floods when it rains as usually we get really good rainstorms! so after 20 years of working on the same trail, I know that the e-bikers are not the problem, water does so much more damage!

2-evolution of the bike my ass! it's a different sport. Since most of our trails are multi-use and rideable in both directions (in most areas that are either crown land or provincial park) when I ride downhill, I have come across hikers that thought it was a good idea to go up a trail that they see has jumps wooden features and berms. I had to tell them that it was not a good idea (while my inner voice just wanted to scream at them for their sheer stupidity. Most people who buy an e-bike already mountain bike and know very well not to go up a DH trail unless they want to get hurt. I do like your point that e-bikers must come to the table and bring solutions to trail access and trail maintenance. I wish the majority of MTB riders would also come to the table!

In Moab, they have restricted access to certain trails and I think that kind of works but I would sure like to see how we can increase the number of trails period as opposed to a divide and conquer type of approach.

If you look at where the e-bike community is at right now, I would compare it to when websites like NSMB and Pinkbike started as there is not really any kind of organized group to promote educate and connect e-bike riders. There is plenty of work to do on that front. If you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on an e-mtb, it should be a no-brainer to get them to buy a trail association membership. But it's not the case!

I see the biggest challenge remains that the percentage of MTB riders (electric or normally aspirated) that are members of an MTB association compared to the population around is the biggest challenge. Our trail association president made the comment this summer that there is a Facebook group for the trail conditions around Calgary and it has 6000 members, our association this year had its best year with 600 members and Calgary has a population of 1.2 Million. As much as I hate to admit it, we will probably need to rethink our approach to recreation and we will probably have to pay a fee if we want access to the outdoors. We are already having to this for Federal parks, i'm pretty sure our Premier Kenney and his budget cutting ways will figure out that this is an untapped source of revenue.

Dec. 13, 2019, 9:33 a.m.
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

hypothetical question: I'm sure rebates for e-bikes are not too far away. Sure, they should be intended for commuting to take cars off the roads, but I bet that can be stretched to that 160mm eMTB. Say you get $1000 back for buying an e-bike, bringing them closer in line with a similar spec mtb, but with a motor! Would you? Will tempt a lot of even the hard line riders.

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