ebikes on the Shore

Most of the world struggles to get food, clothing and shelter.

You’re rich.  So is every other westerner.

Posted by: syncro

Pretty much everything on a metal bike these days is recyclable, including batteries if you're on an ebike, so I think the idea of outdoor sports being a huge polluter is a bit disingenuous. It's not so much the tech that's bad but the potential human (mis)use of it. When it comes to bikes I know there are lot's of people on here with more than one bike, so I'm not sure why Norona is getting crap for having 4 ebikes or this insinuation that he's throwing his batteries in the trash when they wear out. I also think guys like Norona are outliers when it comes to ebike use and that the avg rider is not going to be out doing 900km a month in the dirt on an ebike. 

If our primary concern around ebikes is increased wear and tear on the trails then how about a program that directly targets that and puts money towards trail maintenance? With the amount of people riding these days I seriously think it's time to consider some method of funding trail maintenance anyway, not just for ebikes. Trail passes could work, but they're hard to enforce and the cost of enforcement could cost negate much of the money raised. I think that's where a special levy or tax  on consumables like tires, brake pads, chains, etc could work. You have a captive audience and they can't escape the fee. Then the people who ride more, no matter what or where they ride, and theoretically do more trail damage are directly paying to support their playtime.

If one looks at the big picture it's not just the bikes. It's the resources that go into producing them and the amount of environmental damage that occurs just mining the metals/ Lithium/ carbon etc. All the plastics from tires, helmets, pads, gloves, goggles. Powerbar wrappers, water-bottles, it goes on and on. We can try to recycle, but the amount of consumption far outweighs what gets recycled. Just because one puts something in a recycle bin the chances of it actually being recycled is low.  We think that riding MTB is green but it actually has a pretty heavy footprint,  the insta photos show us being one with nature...... Ironic
I am as guilty as the next person for swapping sports gear ( touring gear, outerwear, bikes, surfboards) every year with the bro deal hook ups in the past, but it's super unnecessary unless it is worn out.

this was heartwarming:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/marketplace-recycling-trackers-b-c-blue-box-1.5299176

Posted by: Brocklanders

If one looks at the big picture it's not just the bikes. It's the resources that go into producing them and the amount of environmental damage that occurs just mining the metals/ Lithium/ carbon etc. All the plastics from tires, helmets, pads, gloves, goggles. Powerbar wrappers, water-bottles, it goes on and on. We can try to recycle, but the amount of consumption far outweighs what gets recycled. Just because one puts something in a recycle bin the chances of it actually being recycled is low.  We think that riding MTB is green but it actually has a pretty heavy footprint,  the insta photos show us being one with nature...... Ironic
I am as guilty as the next person for swapping sports gear ( touring gear, outerwear, bikes, surfboards) every year with the bro deal hook ups in the past, but it's super unnecessary unless it is worn out.

this was heartwarming:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/marketplace-recycling-trackers-b-c-blue-box-1.5299176

Yup, I get the big picture - Western lifestyles create a lot of waste. If you go back to what I actually wrote however, it's a bit different than what you're typing here. My metal bike example? When that used bike or its parts goes in the metal bin it all gets melted down. I don't consider MTB green, but compared to say power sports like dirt biking it's not too bad at all. Maybe it's a bit of a guilty conscience talking for you? It's an easy fix by not swapping out gear every year or buying previously enjoyed gear instead. The mount of fun you can have on a mtb isn't really correlated with how new it is or how much better/easier the tech makes the ride feel.  The only way to really be sustainable is to basically go back to subsistence living where everything we use is organic. In that case here's your new bike. Does it look like fun?

Actually that does look like fun. Love the brakes, not quite like old Hayes nines but close.

Probably more reliable than most of the Avid's I've used over the years.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Brocklanders

If one looks at the big picture it's not just the bikes. It's the resources that go into producing them and the amount of environmental damage that occurs just mining the metals/ Lithium/ carbon etc. All the plastics from tires, helmets, pads, gloves, goggles. Powerbar wrappers, water-bottles, it goes on and on. We can try to recycle, but the amount of consumption far outweighs what gets recycled. Just because one puts something in a recycle bin the chances of it actually being recycled is low.  We think that riding MTB is green but it actually has a pretty heavy footprint,  the insta photos show us being one with nature...... Ironic
I am as guilty as the next person for swapping sports gear ( touring gear, outerwear, bikes, surfboards) every year with the bro deal hook ups in the past, but it's super unnecessary unless it is worn out.

this was heartwarming:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/marketplace-recycling-trackers-b-c-blue-box-1.5299176

Yup, I get the big picture - Western lifestyles create a lot of waste. If you go back to what I actually wrote however, it's a bit different than what you're typing here. My metal bike example? When that used bike or its parts goes in the metal bin it all gets melted down. I don't consider MTB green, but compared to say power sports like dirt biking it's not too bad at all. Maybe it's a bit of a guilty conscience talking for you? It's an easy fix by not swapping out gear every year or buying previously enjoyed gear instead. The mount of fun you can have on a mtb isn't really correlated with how new it is or how much better/easier the tech makes the ride feel.  The only way to really be sustainable is to basically go back to subsistence living where everything we use is organic. In that case here's your new bike. Does it look like fun?

#1, those wheels do not look like they have max grip - more like max slip? (A dad joke and I'm not even one...)

#2, could you imagine the road rash? My skin crabs just thinking of cleaning out the wounds.

Yes Syncro we are always going to be buying newer bikes/tech as the sport progresses. I don't feel guilt, just feel better that I'm not in that cycle anymore. It's just the facts of outdoor sports is that much of the products we buy go in the dumpster and it's on to the next great thing. Reducing consumption just that little bit can make a big difference. Have had my 29er for coming on 3 years now, bought it used/demo with no plans to replace it anytime soon. 

That pic of the wooden bikes is gold by the way, shredding!

Posted by: Brocklanders

Yes Syncro we are always going to be buying newer bikes/tech as the sport progresses. I don't feel guilt, just feel better that I'm not in that cycle anymore. It's just the facts of outdoor sports is that much of the products we buy go in the dumpster and it's on to the next great thing. Reducing consumption just that little bit can make a big difference. Have had my 29er for coming on 3 years now, bought it used/demo with no plans to replace it anytime soon. 

That pic of the wooden bikes is gold by the way, shredding!

Maybe for some, but is it fair to say that about everyone? I know Norona is an easy target for a lot of reasons in this thread, but to light him up on the enviro front without knowing the whole story is a bit much imo. Sure the new bikes are better, but I think a lot of the push to buy them is falling prey to the marketing schtick of you need this because it's newer and better. If we want to fix the enviro damage that comes from rampant consumerism then the best way to do that in the short run is at the till vix luxury taxes. I have no problem with the idea of a luxury tax on expensive items that are used primarily for recreation like mtb's, snow mobiles, dirt bikes, etc.

I guess my biggest disappointment here is that trying to get some convo going on ways to help support trail crews manage increased trail wear got ignored in light of the enviro debate.

Syncro, I definitely wasn't trying to single out Norona! Just bring attention to the incremental cost of adding motors/batteries/etc to mountain biking. 

I agree that we need to find a way to support the trail crews and funding through some form of luxury tax would be great. Your idea would need to target online shoppers as well as the LBS...or else it'll just make them less competitive!

Posted by: syncro

Maybe for some, but is it fair to say that about everyone? I know Norona is an easy target for a lot of reasons in this thread, but to light him up on the enviro front without knowing the whole story is a bit much imo.

I don't understand what you're going on about? During one of his childlike rants, Norona alluded to the recycling of his batteries. Rightly, someone asked him where he recycled these batteries. His response (though hard to read) suggests that he doesn't recycle the batteries and that everyone who rides a bike for leisure is a hypocrite. What am I missing?

I'm not a pedal-assist hater, but I think it's important to point out that the footprint is bigger with these bikes. All personal mountain bike consumption is not equal. One of my favorite riding partners is on a 2006 Slayer and can't be bothered with the marketing. He consumes far less than I do. We should all acknowledge that there is a continuum of consumption and recognize where we exist on its scale. Far more important than generating funding for trail crews.

Posted by: Henry-Chinaski

I don't understand what you're going on about? During one of his childlike rants, Norona alluded to the recycling of his batteries. Rightly, someone asked him where he recycled these batteries. His response (though hard to read) suggests that he doesn't recycle the batteries and that everyone who rides a bike for leisure is a hypocrite. What am I missing?

I'm not a pedal-assist hater, but I think it's important to point out that the footprint is bigger with these bikes. All personal mountain bike consumption is not equal. One of my favorite riding partners is on a 2006 Slayer and can't be bothered with the marketing. He consumes far less than I do. We should all acknowledge that there is a continuum of consumption and recognize where we exist on its scale. Far more important than generating funding for trail crews.

Maybe I overstated the dogpile analogy, but so is saying that his post was a childlike rant. His response was that he's kept most of those ebikes short term and then sold them on to other people so the batteries didn't need to get recycled as they were still in use. He also stated that the batteries are good for many thousands of km's. The hypocrite suggestion came from the idea that a pedal mtb is way more green than an e-mtb. Sure the pedal mtb seems greener, but it's not by a huge margin. For example if the ebike is being ridden to the trail head instead of being driven then there's a chance the ebike may actually be more green. I'm not sure where you're from, but in BC there are mandatory recycling programs for most things these days including batteries, so the chance of an ebike battery here in BC not getting recycled is probably pretty low.

I agree that the footprint with ebikes is potentially bigger, but it's not guaranteed. Like you say there is a continuum of consumption and waste. Maybe that is more important than generating funding for trail crews but it's a bit off topic from my previous post that got this green bit started of trying to tie trail funding to mtb'ing purchases considering that they are essentially a luxury item - especially if one is buying new.

Posted by: syncro

Maybe I overstated the dogpile analogy, but so is saying that his post was a childlike rant. His response was that he's kept most of those ebikes short term and then sold them on to other people so the batteries didn't need to get recycled as they were still in use. He also stated that the batteries are good for many thousands of km's. The hypocrite suggestion came from the idea that a pedal mtb is way more green than an e-mtb. Sure the pedal mtb seems greener, but it's not by a huge margin. For example if the ebike is being ridden to the trail head instead of being driven then there's a chance the ebike may actually be more green. I'm not sure where you're from, but in BC there are mandatory recycling programs for most things these days including batteries, so the chance of an ebike battery here in BC not getting recycled is probably pretty low.

I agree that the footprint with ebikes is potentially bigger, but it's not guaranteed. Like you say there is a continuum of consumption and waste. Maybe that is more important than generating funding for trail crews but it's a bit off topic from my previous post that got this green bit started of trying to tie trail funding to mtb'ing purchases considering that they are essentially a luxury item - especially if one is buying new.

I've been perusing this forum for a long time.  Most of what Norona has posted over that time sounds like it comes from a child.  Not sure what to say...

I'm from Western Washington and have been in BC for 10 years.  Honestly, I have no idea what percentage of lithium batteries end up being recycled in BC, relative to other places.  I couldn't find it with quick google query.  You're right, the footprint probably does depend on your use case.  I personally couldn't ride an e-bike cleaner than and acoustic.  I hope people are using this line of thinking when purchasing these bikes.  I'm all-in on a luxury bike tax.

Posted by: Henry-Chinaski

I've been perusing this forum for a long time. Most of what Norona has posted over that time sounds like it comes from a child. Not sure what to say...

I'm from Western Washington and have been in BC for 10 years. Honestly, I have no idea what percentage of lithium batteries end up being recycled in BC, relative to other places. I couldn't find it with quick google query. You're right, the footprint probably does depend on your use case. I personally couldn't ride an e-bike cleaner than and acoustic. I hope people are using this line of thinking when purchasing these bikes. I'm all-in on a luxury bike tax.

I agree that his posting style often leaves something to be desired, but that particular post wasn't so bad. Personally I think he would benefit from taking a bit of time to make clearer posts as it would help others understand his position a little better - Dave???

Unfortunately I doubt most people give much thought to enviro consideration when buying any sort of consumer product. In terms of mtb's I would feel confident in saying the enviro affects are not a consideration for probably 95% or higher of riders when buying a new bike or gear. It sucks, but until making the more enviro friendly option becomes easier or the less enviro friendly option becomes harder (more expensive) the avg person is not going to run their lives based on enviro concerns. A good example is the ratio of light truck and SUV sales to small car sales. People are more concerned about their own little bubble than how their actions affect the planet and everyone else on it.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Henry-Chinaski

I don't understand what you're going on about? During one of his childlike rants, Norona alluded to the recycling of his batteries. Rightly, someone asked him where he recycled these batteries. His response (though hard to read) suggests that he doesn't recycle the batteries and that everyone who rides a bike for leisure is a hypocrite. What am I missing?

I'm not a pedal-assist hater, but I think it's important to point out that the footprint is bigger with these bikes. All personal mountain bike consumption is not equal. One of my favorite riding partners is on a 2006 Slayer and can't be bothered with the marketing. He consumes far less than I do. We should all acknowledge that there is a continuum of consumption and recognize where we exist on its scale. Far more important than generating funding for trail crews.

Maybe I overstated the dogpile analogy, but so is saying that his post was a childlike rant. His response was that he's kept most of those ebikes short term and then sold them on to other people so the batteries didn't need to get recycled as they were still in use. He also stated that the batteries are good for many thousands of km's. The hypocrite suggestion came from the idea that a pedal mtb is way more green than an e-mtb. Sure the pedal mtb seems greener, but it's not by a huge margin. For example if the ebike is being ridden to the trail head instead of being driven then there's a chance the ebike may actually be more green. I'm not sure where you're from, but in BC there are mandatory recycling programs for most things these days including batteries, so the chance of an ebike battery here in BC not getting recycled is probably pretty low.

I agree that the footprint with ebikes is potentially bigger, but it's not guaranteed. Like you say there is a continuum of consumption and waste. Maybe that is more important than generating funding for trail crews but it's a bit off topic from my previous post that got this green bit started of trying to tie trail funding to mtb'ing purchases considering that they are essentially a luxury item - especially if one is buying new.

Syncro, I agree with most of what you post here but I cannot get on board with luxury taxes for mtb. The government spends tons of money on things for the health of our population. Swimming pools, tennis courts, beaches etc. Volunteer built and maintained trails on vacant land is far from a luxury activity. Sure, I have some nice bikes but that doesn't mean I'm rich. Many mountain bikers arrive with bikes on their trailer hitch that are worth more than the car carrying them.

Mountain biking is a decent tourist draw for BC. It has literally transformed towns like squamish and Cumberland. In Cumberland, there are more people in the Forrest than in the community centre any night of the week. In my opinion the government should be spending more on mountain biking. Creating access to quality trails is good for the health of our population and the economy. 

I pay way more taxes than I would prefer and aside from streets and sewage, use very little our government provides. I don't see Mountain biking as a luxury activity, save that monicker for golf or something like that. That being said, I do believe everyone should be contributing through donations, trail passes and participating in maintenance