ebikes on the Shore

I wonder which poster matches which person in this pic...

Posted by: FLATCH

Blah blah blah... it’s the same pointless dribble. Some of you need to get over yourselves. It’s just bikes for fuck sakes.

Shortsighted. Look at how technology advances and how these industries need to constantly one up themselves to maintain sales year after year. 

In a few years they will be faster, lighter, more powerful, etc etc. They'll literally be motorbikes. With pedal bikes there's a cap on user levels and speed levels based on human capacity. It self regulates to a certain degree as technology can only only go so far I  overcoming the wattage output limits of human beings. 

With ebikes the only cap is technology. if ebikes are not a motorbike loophole currently, it's pretty tough to imagine they won't be in the future. It's the nature of capitalism and "progress" that makes this inevitable. That'scary.

Don’t forget autonomous.

And as usual, there's no rebuttal. /thread.

Posted by: Kenny
With ebikes the only cap is technology. if ebikes are not a motorbike loophole currently, it's pretty tough to imagine they won't be in the future. It's the nature of capitalism and "progress" that makes this inevitable. That'scary.

Yes. That's the problem. We would never have been okay with gas motorcycles on MTB/hiking trails, but because there is an electric motor and a lower powered stock configuration as "get the foot in the door" product it now makes sense to mix motors and human powered recreation like that? The process of getting faster/more powerful e-motos on these trails is inevitable.

If riders/MTB companies don't care and think that's a good idea we can agree to disagree, but please don't come back in 5-10 years and act like they couldn't see this coming.

glad to see some people are thinking long-term.  we're still in such early days with adoption and technology that drawing any inferences about future issues from the current-day conditions is quite misguided.

combine the e-bike trend with the general trends of more sanitized trails and it's hard not to conclude that the sport is going to change significantly.  sure there will still be gnarly trails around that aren't swamped with people, but these will continue to get fewer and fewer, as they're pushed even further out in to the boonies.

i for one am not looking forward to the crowds and further sanitization of trails.

Posted by: Kenny

Shortsighted. Look at how technology advances and how these industries need to constantly one up themselves to maintain sales year after year.

In a few years they will be faster, lighter, more powerful, etc etc. They'll literally be motorbikes. With pedal bikes there's a cap on user levels and speed levels based on human capacity. It self regulates to a certain degree as technology can only only go so far I overcoming the wattage output limits of human beings.

With ebikes the only cap is technology. if ebikes are not a motorbike loophole currently, it's pretty tough to imagine they won't be in the future. It's the nature of capitalism and "progress" that makes this inevitable. That'scary.

I think you and some others are starting to get carried away a bit here. They might get lighter, but not faster or more powerful as per regs that are already set out. They won't literally be motorbikes. The beautiful thing is that we live in a democracy, and if ebikes and their progression are a huge concern there is a way for people to influence what's allowed and what isn't. You can write letters to city/district councils, you can attend council meetings, you can support councilors who have the same concerns and you can vote for those people as well. But don't forget, people who are all for ebikes can do the same things. At the end of the day the user group with the loudest voice typically gets support. Don't want ebikes on the trails? Then form some sort of advocacy group that supports keeping the trails for pedal bikes only or having ebikes restricted in a manner that keeps you happy.

If it was as simple as two user groups trying to figure out how to get along, majority wins, I'd agree. Sorry though sync, from what I've seen the loudest ebike advocates are individuals that are financially incentivized to act as such, so there is not the level of parity between user groups that your post seems to imply. There is too much money involved to be able to reduce the solution to "oh you should just advocate and if you're in the majority you'll get your way".

Call it paranoid or carried away to think that CEO's and MBAs are not frothing at the mouth to lobby for continuous "progress" in legislation, as these machine creep past the $14k mark and potential revenue stream skyrockets, or that this stacks the deck well against Joe trail user, but I believe it's naive to think otherwise. Maybe I need to put down the tinfoil hat, but I don't think so...

Note that none of that is to say we should not be advocating and being proactive in our communities and the decisions that get made, that needs to happen regardless, on the contrary, this post and my post prior are meant to reinforce the fact that it needs to happen moreso.

I was reading about a new Bosch motor for ebikes that has anti tamper software to prevent someone from increasing the speed cutoff. If that is the norm to force conformity with regulations that is a good thing. When I think about places like North Van and Squamish, I think those places are already pretty crowded and growth is not necessarily a good thing. In skiing I see all these high speed quad and six pack chair lifts (and even 8 seaters some places) reducing lift lines while increasing uphill capacity creating crowded runs. That does not improve skiing in my opinion. Would something similar happen in mountain biking if more people can ride because of motor assist?

I finally got to try out an ebike, and holy shit they are fun. Making trails that are usually a grind, more fun and flowy...loved it. I don't think one will be in my stable soon...but it's not something I am going to rule out...a good compliment to my Rootdown for sure.

I think that with the limitations put into place right now, I have no issues with pedalecs. As long as these battery/motor limitations stay as they are things should be okay...they need to work on making the motor and software as unhackable. Having an ebike makes really no difference on the downhills other than the weight...so keeping the limit where it is now (or even lower) would be great.

I am getting tired of the haters using the same arguments as the trail users used to use against MTBs back in the '80s and '90s....c'mon come up with something original people! :P

Posted by: Kenny

If it was as simple as two user groups trying to figure out how to get along, majority wins, I'd agree. Sorry though sync, from what I've seen the loudest ebike advocates are individuals that are financially incentivized to act as such, so there is not the level of parity between user groups that your post seems to imply. There is too much money involved to be able to reduce the solution to "oh you should just advocate and if you're in the majority you'll get your way".

Call it paranoid or carried away to think that CEO's and MBAs are not frothing at the mouth to lobby for continuous "progress" in legislation, as these machine creep past the $14k mark and potential revenue stream skyrockets, or that this stacks the deck well against Joe trail user, but I believe it's naive to think otherwise. Maybe I need to put down the tinfoil hat, but I don't think so...

Note that none of that is to say we should not be advocating and being proactive in our communities and the decisions that get made, that needs to happen regardless, on the contrary, this post and my post prior are meant to reinforce the fact that it needs to happen more so.

My post was primarily directed at your comment about them being faster, more powerful and "literally motorbikes". For that to happen government would need to roll back the measures currently in place WRT power and speed restrictions and I highly doubt that is going to happen. As for advocacy, I bring the point up partially to see who steps up and says they are doing something in that regard. It's not necessarily about majority wins, but it as about making your voice heard by the people who will actually make the decisions on ebike use on the trails.

I agree that bike co's have a vested interest in seeing these things go big, and to be honest I think they will simply because people have fun on them. That is going to be the #1 thing that drives their success.  Just ask yourself why people ride? It's the same reason as a lot of other things that people do - because it's fun and they enjoy it. Add in what shouldn't be a newsflash, that more riders enjoy the down more than the up, and it makes sense that people will like these things. Also consider that people will typically put their own needs and wants ahead of the greater good - just look at the number of people who ride compared to those who volunteer - and it's no surprise that ebikes are gaining in popularity and will continue to do so. Will they become the dominant player in the market tho? Who knows, but for now there is at least an opportunity to get some rules around mtn ebikes established when it comes to their use on the trails and it's probably a good idea to do that sooner than later.

I tried this once before on it's own thread, but after my last post I'll put it out there one more time. Is there any appetite for putting together some sort of wishlist or desired set of regulations for ebikes and sending that in a letter campaign to the requisite land managers or even presenting it at a council meeting? Like someone else said a few pages back this thread and topic is pretty much at a stalemate and the same arguments more or less just keep getting re-hashed.

baring that - one last shot at comedic relief for this thread

My regulation wish list: no motors on trails currently designated as “non motorized” trails.

Posted by: tashi

My regulation wish list: no motors on trails currently designated as “non motorized” trails.

ok that's a start. so here's an honest question, would you want that apply to up as well as down or just down? the reason i ask is that i see the down differential as negligible between the two types. on the up it makes much more of a difference and definitely see a need for some sort of rules. 

and also to your point, if you are going to split the difference solely at motorized vs non-motorized are you ok with not being able to ride your pedal bike on the new trails that may possibly be created for ebikes?