ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: BigFoot

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: FLATCH

syncro, i always appreciate your level headed view points, but riding up an obvious downhill trail is just plain wrong for anybody. perhaps downhill trails could be better marked in heavily used regions.

Thanks FLATCH, but I disagree with you here as it's not a black and white issue. I agree with you that there are circumstances and trails where it shouldn't be done, but you can't make a blanket statement that any trail used for going downhill should never be ridden uphill. I appreciate you used a qualifier and said "obvious" downhill trail, but what that means to you and what it means to someone else may be two very different things. 

Where the convo gets really dicey is when ebikes are added to the mix. What was once unrideable in an uphill direction is now accessible with the addition of the juice. So yeah in that respect there are situations where it becomes downright dangerous to both riders for someone to ride up a primarily downhill trail. That's part of why we need a set of rules on riding etiquette for all trail users.

Well said, a few " Downhill only, riding uphill is prohibited" at the bottom or " This trail is used in both directions, downhill has right of way" at the top would work wonders, if enforced.

This creates an issue as standard trail etiquette is that uphill has right of way on multi direction trails. I'd hate to lose that privilege because someone else has a motor unless we start designating downhill primary multi direction trails. That might be too many words for a sign or us dim folk.

Posted by: BigFoot

Well said, a few " Downhill only, riding uphill is prohibited" at the bottom or " This trail is used in both directions, downhill has right of way" at the top would work wonders, if enforced.

Haha, funny enough I just put up signs like that only to have them beaten off the trees with a rock a few days later.

Small routered "Up⬆️"and "Down⬇️" signs. They were mostly to help lost hikers avoid downhill traffic and take the adjacent climbing trail instead, but yeah an e-biker had been running laps up that steep downhill trail too.

the switchbacks on uphill trails are going to get blown out by short-cutting ebikes

No they won’t 

You’ll start seeing braids between the switchbacks straight up the slope so ebikers can get up there even faster.

I've been seeing this on certain climbing trails. I happily dismount, and drag all manners of debris, rocks, and logs to block the switchback cuts. From what I can tell, it's simply trail vandalism done by people without authorization to modify or reroute the trails. You encounter a certain amount of logs and debris, and people tend to give up with the stupid shortcuts.

I was piling debris into an obvious braid (think 25’+ of grade reversal) 

Every time I went back up the trail the debris was removed. ¯\(ツ)/¯

what about flat-ish multiuse. Does anyone want 500W of pedal assisted braaap coming at them out of a blind corner? When did biking become all about mass consumption of trails rather than just enjoying the time outside? Why can't people wait for their slower partners? What if we get 20km/hr speed limits on multi-use pathways because old people (who drove to the trails) panic when they get passed?

People feel entitled to go fast.

Posted by: mtbman99

I think this is the crux of the issue for most and it’s how do you stop non CAT 1 ebikes. If you say no motors that’s relatively easy to deal with but once there is a motor how is it dealt with. Or in a few years if industry creeps the speeds up a notch. 

They want to sell these and will be looking for an advantage over the competition be that in distance or speed or both.

Again more what ifs. 

How do you stop people from skidding corners? Building rogue trails?Riding hiking trails? Tossing garbage out the window? Educate them and continue to do so. 

Kinda like the IMBA, they have pounded it into so many people heads you need 100 switchbacks per km of trail that it is a standard. 

Argue all you want, stick your head in the sand name call etc but the bikes are here to stay. Trail organizations will need to get on board with signage at trailheads to help inform ebike riders on proper etiquette.

Argue all you want, stick your head in the sand name call etc but the bikes are here to stay. Trail organizations will need to get on board with signage at trailheads to help inform ebike riders on proper etiquette.

Hard to argue that when the industry is pushing ebikes so hard. My understanding is it's been monitored, so a bit premature to say they're here to stay. Certain trail system have banned them and other have the legal right to implement bans as well.

If you don't think that ebikes will become more powerful/faster eventually...... that's very naive! Precedence has been set......

Posted by: Ouch

My understanding is it's been monitored, so a bit premature to say they're here to stay. Certain trail system have banned them and other have the legal right to implement bans as well.

That is correct. And I'll add that the worst justification, from my perspective, is the "Too bad, deal with it" line. That's been the company line all the way from the manufacturers, down to the dealers/renters, and trickled right down to many of the riders.

Which land owners have banned e bikes specifically? ( not trail orgs) What precedence has been set?

Provincial government has given the green light for now. Call me naive but I don’t really see the mainstream manufacturers waisting their efforts mass producing products that have been regulated here and in Europe. The later being miles ahead of us in terms restriction and acceptance.

Posted by: D-man

Posted by: mtbman99

I think this is the crux of the issue for most and it’s how do you stop non CAT 1 ebikes. If you say no motors that’s relatively easy to deal with but once there is a motor how is it dealt with. Or in a few years if industry creeps the speeds up a notch. 

They want to sell these and will be looking for an advantage over the competition be that in distance or speed or both.

Again more what ifs. 

How do you stop people from skidding corners? Building rogue trails?Riding hiking trails? Tossing garbage out the window? Educate them and continue to do so. 

Kinda like the IMBA, they have pounded it into so many people heads you need 100 switchbacks per km of trail that it is a standard. 

Argue all you want, stick your head in the sand name call etc but the bikes are here to stay. Trail organizations will need to get on board with signage at trailheads to help inform ebike riders on proper etiquette.

I wonder if when we showed up on the trails there were hikers that said "Well, they're here to stay, we should probably just put up a sign asking them to be nice."

Or maybe they noticed the impact that we were having on their experience and fought for their interests, successfully protecting their resource in some areas and not others.

Trail organizations will do what their members want them to do.  Personally, I don't want them to advocate for motorized bikes on mountain bike primary trails.  My local org will lose my membership if they "get on board" and start advocating for bikes with motors.  I'll also be asking non-local ones their stance before buying a membership instead of just buying a membership when I ride there.

Trail Orgs, who act on the basis of their agreements with the Land Owners/Manager, have made bans. The closest examples are KCTS and UROC. Sure, KCTS is a bit handcuffed by the government regs, as some of their routes are partially on gov land and partially on private land, so it's sticky but ebikes are still currently banned from their system. UROC is a part owner of their land, and co-manage with the forestry company, who agreed to non-motorized use. You could also throw in WORCA and the Sproatt area.

Again, if you're expecting Land Owners to ban ebikes, it's not going to come in that form. If they can't manage this issue through the acting trail orgs (with whom they already have non-motorized agreements), they'll just ban all forms of bike access.