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ebikes on the Shore

April 3, 2019, 3:41 p.m.
Posts: 153
Joined: April 26, 2004

Posted by: grambo

... Some fit looking mid 40's dude on an S-Works Turbo Levo ($14,400CAD) comes flying up the last pitch of the climb, rides right through the middle of all the acoustic riders and immediately down the road toward Severed. Did not slow down, lift his head, make eye contact, or even say a friendly hello... No one even had time to say anything or react as the guy was moving too quickly. We all had a good laugh about this, was the guy afraid of being shit talked? Embarrassed? Feeling shame? ...

Over the past few years on Mtn Hwy, trails and bike paths, I have had the experience of e-bikers (e-tards) flying through groups of bikers, pedestrians, strollers dogs etc. with out slowing down, or even making the appearance of trying to slalom or stand in ready position for emergency braking.  I thought it was because the motor is activated to full throttle by very little pedal input, and there is a delay between stopping pedaling and slowing of the motorbike; whereas, for human powered bikes there is 100% feedback in human input to the speed of the bike

April 3, 2019, 4:35 p.m.
Posts: 1398
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: nouseforaname

Posted by: syncro

True, but by not being proactive they also run risk of not being able to play in the sandbox at all if emtbs are banned altogether.

I don't think that's going to happen. I feel like General Ludd opposing these things. The deals will get done - whether back room or in front of the people, and emtbs will be here to stay. 

No one is going to pony up for policing (you can get ticketed for riding the darkside - but how often does that actually happen?), and it's not like anyone in Federal or Provincial Govt actually gives two shits about mountainbike trails. All the effort will be downloaded onto the volunteer organisations along the lines of "well if you don't like it, we can roll back everything you've won out of us so far."

Probably, but it's a big risk especially considering the way the issue is being considered in the states. I guess the bike co's are looking at sales from a global perspective and if a few smaller jurisdictions give them the boot they probably won't care as the hit to the bottom line won't be enough to abandon the market.  at the end of the day I think it's going to be consumer demand that determines how these things will play out.

April 3, 2019, 6:07 p.m.
Posts: 1433
Joined: Nov. 8, 2003

Posted by: Brocklanders

Just don't wanna lose trail access due to conflict, from electric motorbikes riding trails not built for them.

That's all

Undoubtedly someone will chime in with feigned confusion to that message, but well said Brock. It's what we're all worried about.

April 4, 2019, 8:35 a.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: Ddean

I remember Monica saying that her community was going to stay silent on the issue and let ebikes become part of MTB culture, and then at that point would they start waving their arms again. An inability to police the difference between ebikes and MTBs is their plan for grouping the two groups together. If you cant enforce a difference between ebikes versus MTBs and if ebikes are not good, all bikes get banned. That is what it looks like their future argument will be.

This^^

We see issues coming, trying to address them, little conversation happening, land mangers silent, most trail associations quiet.

Bike Industry: All good bro! We can all get along right? Relax all good!

So far on what I have found just in the PNW COTA ( Bend )BLM - Cumby-  Revy-  Evergreen ( Washington)- BLM . All have said no thanks.

Our Mighty NSMBA, and SORCA are pretty much in favor of them from what I gather in the online surveys.

I guess that's what happens when you are bros with the bros bro.


 Last edited by: Brocklanders on April 4, 2019, 8:48 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
April 4, 2019, 9:38 a.m.
Posts: 2
Joined: March 2, 2019

Posted by: Bull_Dozer

the fact that riders who are less fit/skilled/capable as them are able to beat them up the hill using artificial means. 

I'm just gonna shorten that sentence for you because the first half is bullshit.

April 4, 2019, 9:53 a.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: Ddean

I remember Monica saying that her community was going to stay silent on the issue and let ebikes become part of MTB culture, and then at that point would they start waving their arms again. An inability to police the difference between ebikes and MTBs is their plan for grouping the two groups together. If you cant enforce a difference between ebikes versus MTBs and if ebikes are not good, all bikes get banned. That is what it looks like their future argument will be.

This^^

We see issues coming, trying to address them, little conversation happening, land mangers silent, most trail associations quiet.

Bike Industry: All good bro! We can all get along right? Relax all good!

So far on what I have found just in the PNW COTA ( Bend )BLM - Cumby-  Revy-  Evergreen ( Washington)- BLM . All have said no thanks.

Our Mighty NSMBA, and SORCA are pretty much in favor of them from what I gather in the online surveys.

I guess that's what happens when you are bros with the bros bro.

Bro, you ever heard of doing some like uh research Bro? 

See here they have a section on the website that clearly states their policies. 

https://nsmba.ca/policies-and-bylaws/

Ohh look a policy on ebikes. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QUQ9GCKRr0q14uA1RzmfYmbBRNaRfoQ6eUkmXrTXnA4/edit

See that very first line? 

"The NSMBA advocates for non-motorised mountain biking. The NSMBA considers Electric Mountain Bikes (“E-bikes”) a separate motorized user group."

Or you can keeping being mis-informed and spout off stuff about them being beholden to their sponsors or not wanting to piss off the Bros.

April 4, 2019, 10:19 a.m.
Posts: 871
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

Its not relevant who or what they are advocating for online. The ONLY thing that matters is what their trail policy is.

Im with Brock that NSMBA does not have a stance on e-bikes or other user groups. Just wait until you start to see horses trotting up No Quarter! I don't know if District bylaws would allow horses on the Shore but as far as I can tell, if they would, they'd be considered within NSMBAs policies of broad inclusion by silence on matters of exclusion, just like ebikes. Perhaps NSMBA does not have the authority to determine which user groups can and cannot use the trails within their network? I don't know. But saying that they advocate for non-motorized bicycles does not mean anything regarding user groups on the trails. They advocate for 12 months of sunshine too.

When most people think about trail policy, theyre thinking signs saying "No motorized bicycles".


 Last edited by: Ddean on April 4, 2019, 10:21 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 4, 2019, 10:48 a.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

FFS I just linked to the policy, how can you say there is no stance?

FYI the trials are not "their network", the trails are on municipal, provincial, and federal land. Each of these have separate land managers. The NSMBA has entered into working agreements to allow them and volunteers to work on these trails, but let's set one thing VERY clear, these are NOT the NSMBA's trails nor network. They can ADVOCATE for what the board feels it's membership wants. 

NSMBA doesn't make ANY policy with regards to trails.

Horses are permitted on the Shore and you'll see them on the trails in Princess Park often. There are several stables around the Williams Street area under the power lines.

April 4, 2019, 10:52 a.m.
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

You are correct that the NSMBA has zero authority as to which groups use the trails.  They can only advocate for trail use, but it is obviously not in their mandate to enforce any policies.  That is up to the land managers.  In the case of Fromme, that is mostly the DNV.

Their responses to my inquiries about e-bike policy are the same as others have received here: "As of yet, there is no formalized policy pertaining to e-bikes. However, the District of North Vancouver currently does not encourage the use of e-bikes on mountain bike trails on District property."

This would be fence sitting at its finest.  No idea what 'does not encourage use of' means.

April 4, 2019, 11:23 a.m.
Posts: 33
Joined: June 9, 2017

earleb is correct, and I think its worth laying out a bit of how this works.

We do not set policy for any land manager, be it ebikes, horses, what criteria define a 'Blue Square' trail, or how many accessible parking spots there are. For most of Fromme, allowed uses and activities for parks (and trails) are set out in DNV Bylaw 8310, which is adopted by DNV Council. We don't put up trail signs, boundary signs, or use signs (with the exception of TAP signs). We don't get to decide who is allowed on what trails. We are fortunate to be allowed to build and maintain trails, per the standards and guidelines laid out by each individual land manager.

We advocate for mountain biking, mountain bike access, and mountain bike trails, with currently seven (?) different land managers; be that with staff or elected officials. This involves discussions with and about other user groups, be it hikers, runners, streamkeepers, or professional dogwalkers, and understanding that each land manager is unique in their needs, mandate, regulations, policies, and resources. None of those seven give us control over who can be on what trails; we can offer opinions, comments, and thoughts on behalf of our membership and users (advocating), but we can make no decisions on access.

Equestrians are absolutely allowed on many trails on the Shore. The biggest artery on Seymour is named after them.

TL:DR; "Perhaps NSMBA does not have the authority to determine which user groups can and cannot use the trails within their network?" Bingo.

*EDIT: Also, I totally wouldn't advocate for 12 months of sunshine. It wouldn't really be the Shore, I'm terrified of a massive interface fire, I like skiing, and I hate dusty trails. But advocating for sunshine would be as effective as advocating for mountain bike trails can be sometimes.


 Last edited by: cooperquinn on April 4, 2019, 11:31 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 4, 2019, 1:08 p.m.
Posts: 871
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

So there you go! The trail associations are bystanders just like us.

eBikes are here to stay and their use will only grow. My biggest hope is that they wont be abused or create divisions within ANY user group, be them those pedaling MTBs or those outside of the MTB community trying to lump them together with MTBs. The good news is that the MTB community is super strong on the Shore - I don't feel that NSMBA or the authorized trails are at risk of broad action due to ebikes…..MTBing is far too organized here. Without NSMBA perhaps the trails would be at risk but with it, no way. Perhaps non-authorized trail zones are at risk should the two Districts embrace a stance where ebikes are prohibited and then also determine that they cant police ebikes versus regular MTBs. Seems that we would have a ways to go before that happens.

But its a good thought process to go through - since NSMBA doesn't have authority, the land owners/managers will decide and if the MTB community forces an anti-ebike stance, ask yourself if we force the discussion, whats the likely outcome (given that we have a robust well managed network in place)? My guess is darkside rules for non authorized zones/trails. I kinda like the status quo....I don't see ebikes as a problem right now - hopefully it stays that way and people on eBikes don't create a problem. My fear is Bylaws wont work in our favour if they do.

April 4, 2019, 3:33 p.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: earleb

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: Ddean

I remember Monica saying that her community was going to stay silent on the issue and let ebikes become part of MTB culture, and then at that point would they start waving their arms again. An inability to police the difference between ebikes and MTBs is their plan for grouping the two groups together. If you cant enforce a difference between ebikes versus MTBs and if ebikes are not good, all bikes get banned. That is what it looks like their future argument will be.

This^^

We see issues coming, trying to address them, little conversation happening, land mangers silent, most trail associations quiet.

Bike Industry: All good bro! We can all get along right? Relax all good!

So far on what I have found just in the PNW COTA ( Bend )BLM - Cumby-  Revy-  Evergreen ( Washington)- BLM . All have said no thanks.

Our Mighty NSMBA, and SORCA are pretty much in favor of them from what I gather in the online surveys.

I guess that's what happens when you are bros with the bros bro.

Bro, you ever heard of doing some like uh research Bro? 

See here they have a section on the website that clearly states their policies. 

https://nsmba.ca/policies-and-bylaws/

Ohh look a policy on ebikes. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QUQ9GCKRr0q14uA1RzmfYmbBRNaRfoQ6eUkmXrTXnA4/edit

See that very first line? 

"The NSMBA advocates for non-motorised mountain biking. The NSMBA considers Electric Mountain Bikes (“E-bikes”) a separate motorized user group."

Or you can keeping being mis-informed and spout off stuff about them being beholden to their sponsors or not wanting to piss off the Bros.

The NSMBA polls it’s membership on opinions of E-bikes each year in our annual survey and shares these metrics with land managers.

I must have missed that one on the survey, wonder why it was left out?

April 4, 2019, 4:09 p.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

You need some new glasses maybe?

There were a couple ebike questions on this years survey.


 Last edited by: earleb on April 4, 2019, 4:10 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 4, 2019, 8:32 p.m.
Posts: 1398
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

So if people are going to make some sort of request to the land managers to consider restricting the use of ebikes what would that look like? How would that be presented to the various councils and boards? What type of resources would you use to make your case? And most importantly, how would you show support for restricting the use of ebikes? 

I'm curious if anyone has made any attempt to go down this path beyond what the NSMBA may have put forth. What do you think would happen if there was a Crist type response at a DNV council meeting, or at several meetings, with the goal of getting ebikes restricted?

April 5, 2019, 9:48 a.m.
Posts: 67
Joined: June 24, 2011

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Brocklanders

I barely spun the pedals, the thing jumped out of its skin. This whole pedal assist thing is such a load of crap. It's like just spin your legs a little, the motor will do the rest of the work. Prob 99% of the work at 30km per hr.

Shocking really, I wanted to be open minded about them but forget it. They are electric dirt bikes.

I'm sure no one would use that boost mode on a climb.... yeah right.

I gotta admit that's a bit disappointing to hear. To try and remain objective tho I can see the boost mode being great for long service/fire road types of climbs. in terms of climbing trails that are technical and/or single track, I wonder if the boost mode is actually practical? I'm guessing from your description that the bikes computer is designed to just take it straight to top speed no matter how much pedaling effort the user puts in. In this case I don't think the boost mode would work as it would be too fast for the trail. Either way, I feel same rules I stated above apply. IF riders are following/using that protocol, I don't see any reason for conflict on the trails. I agree though that it does create a situation that is more prone to abuse.

When a climb is 700m or less, then I can't see a need for pedal assist unless you want to bang out a huge number of laps. That being said when you want to ride more than one trail in a day, and the climbs average 1000m+, where 99% of people are going to get shuttled anyway, they make sense (cue battery production emissions vs. automobile emissions argument). Trail centres and places like Burke or the Woodlot, they're widely unnecessary, unless you're particularly out of shape (like me, although I don't own an E-bike) or have some physical problems. But who am I to talk... I'm likely going to sell my bikes because this sport has become too homogenized and boring.

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