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ebikes on the Shore

March 29, 2019, 10:59 a.m.
Posts: 751
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

I started off pretty much dead against ebikes until a I learned more about them. Still not for me, and probably never will be. However, I pretty much don't care what other people ride, as long as they're not jerks about it. A jerk on a mountain bike is little different than a jerk on an ebike. I have many friends that are all aboard for an ebike, and I couldn't care less.

What I really don't get though, is the idea that some ebike-riders have that it's perfectly okay to go whizzing uphill on trails that other people descend. When I'm descending, I'm always looking for hikers, but there's just no way you can descend and be prepared to someone on a motorized bike zipping uphill toward you. Who gets priority there? The uphill rider (with a motor) or the downhill rider? Obviously directional signage would help, but using ebikes in this manner (as is already happening) is creating conflict where none existed, and it seems it's up to everyone else to figure it out. Not cool, and not cool for ebikes to be marketed by promoting uphill riding on steep singletracks clearly intended (and sometimes officially recognized on Section 57 trail applications) as downhill primary.  < and yes, many applications include a statement of direction.

Another thing I'll be curious to track is WHEN ebikes are preferred. It makes sense that a motor will help you power through the mud and light snow a bit easier. Thus, the technology makes it much easier to go out and rip it up when the trails are most sensitive. Admittedly, you don't need a motor to do that, but it sure makes it a lot easier, especially if you want to lug a few extra pounds of fenders and goretex. The IMBA study from 2015 did not show any differences between MTB and eMTB, but was based on limited observations in set conditions, and explicitly stated that more research is needed. This may need to consider not just what the comparable impacts are, but what the impacts are based on the way the technology is used. Trail abuse is an issue for MTB and eMTB alike, and I would like to think that people that reach for an ebike will care about the trails as much as everyone else, but that may remain subject to debate. It is undeniable that ebikes facilitate riding in poor conditions...the only question is how the riders choose to behave. 

Now that some groups are taking steps to recognize ebikes (like in Whistler) and recognize class-1 (limit 20mph/32kph) as acceptable on most trails, how will that be managed (i.e. enforced)? There are lots of examples of people hacking ebikes for more speed and output, and certainly the manufacturers will try to push the most gratifying product they can market. The manufacturers are clearly taking steps to make eMTBs as stealthy as possible to disguise their product. It will be interesting to see how that works out, as higher-powered bikes are inevitably cranked out, and those that ride them decide they want to ride them everywhere.  It may be simple enough to identify the people on throttle driven bikes, but what about Class 3 ebikes (pedal-assist) with a max speed of 28mph (over 45kmh)?  This will be a challenge again based on how people choose to use the tech.

So yeah, there's an abundance of trails, and room for everyone. But addressing potential issues (speculative or not) is not "hating"....it's just responsible. I don't care what people ride (within the rules) so long as they proceed responsibly.

What we really haven't seen (at any point) is any statement from manufacturers or those that market ebikes about responsible use. Every time I read an ebike fluff piece, they only want to address the pathetic arguments (...oh people think we're cheating, ....oh everyone else is so elitist, ....oh people think we're destroying the trails and we're just like dirt bikes)......basically [they] focus only on the weakest straw-man critiques without contributing ANYTHING remotely thoughtful to how to integrate this technology in a manner that is good for all riders and good for the trails. Just for once, I'd like to hear someone that sells or promotes ebikes to contribute to discussions about trail directions, technology creep, and some of the other considerations that will need to be ironed out (um, insurance anyone?).  In fact, this is exactly what I see as the critical weakness of the ebike marketing campaign. Their future on the trails relies greatly on lobbying to establish and preserve access to the trails they want to ride (clearly, nobody is about to go and build a dedicated ebike trail network). But that lobbying represents a lot of work......ugh, work, you know, like pedaling is work. Ugh. All that hard work. I've read a dozen fluff pieces from people that went on about not having enough time to ride and how ebikes allow them to get out....yada yada yada......it's hard to believe THAT person will have time for advocacy and lobbying for access......Really, the industry (and their little regional reps) seem to be playing this all wrong by ignoring the issues, instead of tackling them and establishing a constructive dialogue about responsible integration. Ebikes are not "against" regular mountain bikes, but they are different in some sense...and because of that those that prefer ebikes can hardly expect that the non-motorized crowd is going to take up the fight for access on their behalf. The current mtb community is well-established and has extensive ranks of volunteers (of which only a tiny portion ride ebikes).  Right now ebikes are moving forward due to lack of clear policies; access by default. That will undoubtedly change (i.e. Lord of the Squirrels now officially off limits to ebikes along with everything above the flank). I'm really curious where the hard-working and responsiblity-pushing ebike lobby will come from.  Not exactly holding my breath though. It's important to consider there are those that resist ALL bikes for certain....the you-know-whos and protectors-of-toads. It's not other bikers that may be the biggest opponents to ebikes, but other influential groups, and I really can't see bikers as a whole battling against those groups to preserve ebike access. 

There's no hate here. Just wondering if and when meaningful discussions will happen around the technology...as in discussions not just on the internet, including those that actually want these bikes.

March 29, 2019, 11:01 a.m.
Posts: 1055
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: grambo

Posted by: shoreboy

I thought PB was trying to adopt a 'no e-bike content' policy? If it is the same press release that is posted up here, I am not surprised the PB collective went to town on it.

Nope, it's still there: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-enters-the-e-mtb-market-with-decoy.html

What Pinkbike is doing is using geo-locating to not display ebike related content to North American IP's both on the website and their social media feeds. If you direct link or search for that content you can see it from North America but it doens't display on the main page. They are trying to have it both ways because they need the advertising dollars for the Euro crowd where ebikes have already been accepted. I don't blame them from a business perspective but the cognitive dissonance is hilarious.

It appears the Brits have a huge chubby for these things.  Which is strange due to the lack of long steep climbs on most of the island.

Also the ongoing UK conversation about how pivots aren't manageable in their muck, hardtails and singlespeeds are what work, etc. And yet motorized full suspension bikes are awesome.

March 29, 2019, 11:15 a.m.
Posts: 365
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: cerealkilla_

I started off pretty much dead against ebikes until a I learned more about them. Still not for me, and probably never will be. However, I pretty much don't care what other people ride, as long as they're not jerks about it. A jerk on a mountain bike is little different than a jerk on an ebike. I have many friends that are all aboard for an ebike, and I couldn't care less.

What I really don't get though, is the idea that some ebike-riders have that it's perfectly okay to go whizzing uphill on trails that other people descend. When I'm descending, I'm always looking for hikers, but there's just no way you can descend and be prepared to someone on a motorized bike zipping uphill toward you. Who gets priority there? The uphill rider (with a motor) or the downhill rider? Obviously directional signage would help, but using ebikes in this manner (as is already happening) is creating conflict where none existed, and it seems it's up to everyone else to figure it out. Not cool, and not cool for ebikes to be marketed by promoting uphill riding on steep singletracks clearly intended (and sometimes officially recognized on Section 57 trail applications) as downhill primary.  < and yes, many applications include a statement of direction.

Another thing I'll be curious to track is WHEN ebikes are preferred. It makes sense that a motor will help you power through the mud and light snow a bit easier. Thus, the technology makes it much easier to go out and rip it up when the trails are most sensitive. Admittedly, you don't need a motor to do that, but it sure makes it a lot easier, especially if you want to lug a few extra pounds of fenders and goretex. The IMBA study from 2015 did not show any differences between MTB and eMTB, but was based on limited observations in set conditions, and explicitly stated that more research is needed. This may need to consider not just what the comparable impacts are, but what the impacts are based on the way the technology is used. Trail abuse is an issue for MTB and eMTB alike, and I would like to think that people that reach for an ebike will care about the trails as much as everyone else, but that may remain subject to debate. It is undeniable that ebikes facilitate riding in poor conditions...the only question is how the riders choose to behave. 

Now that some groups are taking steps to recognize ebikes (like in Whistler) and recognize class-1 (limit 20mph/32kph) as acceptable on most trails, how will that be managed (i.e. enforced)? There are lots of examples of people hacking ebikes for more speed and output, and certainly the manufacturers will try to push the most gratifying product they can market. The manufacturers are clearly taking steps to make eMTBs as stealthy as possible to disguise their product. It will be interesting to see how that works out, as higher-powered bikes are inevitably cranked out, and those that ride them decide they want to ride them everywhere.  It may be simple enough to identify the people on throttle driven bikes, but what about Class 3 ebikes (pedal-assist) with a max speed of 28mph (over 45kmh)?  This will be a challenge again based on how people choose to use the tech.

So yeah, there's an abundance of trails, and room for everyone. But addressing potential issues (speculative or not) is not "hating"....it's just responsible. I don't care what people ride (within the rules) so long as they proceed responsibly.

What we really haven't seen (at any point) is any statement from manufacturers or those that market ebikes about responsible use. Every time I read an ebike fluff piece, they only want to address the pathetic arguments (...oh people think we're cheating, ....oh everyone else is so elitist, ....oh people think we're destroying the trails and we're just like dirt bikes)......basically [they] focus only on the weakest straw-man critiques without contributing ANYTHING remotely thoughtful to how to integrate this technology in a manner that is good for all riders and good for the trails. Just for once, I'd like to hear someone that sells or promotes ebikes to contribute to discussions about trail directions, technology creep, and some of the other considerations that will need to be ironed out (um, insurance anyone?).  In fact, this is exactly what I see as the critical weakness of the ebike marketing campaign. Their future on the trails relies greatly on lobbying to establish and preserve access to the trails they want to ride (clearly, nobody is about to go and build a dedicated ebike trail network). But that lobbying represents a lot of work......ugh, work, you know, like pedaling is work. Ugh. All that hard work. I've read a dozen fluff pieces from people that went on about not having enough time to ride and how ebikes allow them to get out....yada yada yada......it's hard to believe THAT person will have time for advocacy and lobbying for access......Really, the industry (and their little regional reps) seem to be playing this all wrong by ignoring the issues, instead of tackling them and establishing a constructive dialogue about responsible integration. Ebikes are not "against" regular mountain bikes, but they are different in some sense...and because of that those that prefer ebikes can hardly expect that the non-motorized crowd is going to take up the fight for access on their behalf. The current mtb community is well-established and has extensive ranks of volunteers (of which only a tiny portion ride ebikes).  Right now ebikes are moving forward due to lack of clear policies; access by default. That will undoubtedly change (i.e. Lord of the Squirrels now officially off limits to ebikes along with everything above the flank). I'm really curious where the hard-working and responsiblity-pushing ebike lobby will come from.  Not exactly holding my breath though. It's important to consider there are those that resist ALL bikes for certain....the you-know-whos and protectors-of-toads. It's not other bikers that may be the biggest opponents to ebikes, but other influential groups, and I really can't see bikers as a whole battling against those groups to preserve ebike access. 

There's no hate here. Just wondering if and when meaningful discussions will happen around the technology...as in discussions not just on the internet, including those that actually want these bikes.

Spot on.

March 29, 2019, 1:19 p.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: craw

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: grambo

Posted by: shoreboy

I thought PB was trying to adopt a 'no e-bike content' policy? If it is the same press release that is posted up here, I am not surprised the PB collective went to town on it.

Nope, it's still there: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-enters-the-e-mtb-market-with-decoy.html

What Pinkbike is doing is using geo-locating to not display ebike related content to North American IP's both on the website and their social media feeds. If you direct link or search for that content you can see it from North America but it doens't display on the main page. They are trying to have it both ways because they need the advertising dollars for the Euro crowd where ebikes have already been accepted. I don't blame them from a business perspective but the cognitive dissonance is hilarious.

It appears the Brits have a huge chubby for these things.  Which is strange due to the lack of long steep climbs on most of the island.

Also the ongoing UK conversation about how pivots aren't manageable in their muck, hardtails and singlespeeds are what work, etc. And yet motorized full suspension bikes are awesome.

Kinda off topic but I have family there, my cousin rides mostly XC in the south of England. Due to the 100's of years of coal use and whatever else came out of the factories, the soil is really hard on bike parts due to it's acidity. He says seals, drive train etc wears way faster than it does here. And ya the mud is like a sticky muck that is a bitch to get off the bikes.

March 29, 2019, 3:21 p.m.
Posts: 3518
Joined: Dec. 17, 2003

Posted by: Brocklanders

It appears the Brits have a huge chubby for these things.  Which is strange due to the lack of long steep climbs on most of the island.

It's cause they're lazy bitches.

There's nothing to the UK but drinking, shopping and screwing. Consumer culture with no appreciation for anyone else.

Also - there's very little 'builder driven' trails. Trails are usually either 1: been there for centuries, 2: trail centres where someones being paid to maintain them or 3: someone builds it and abandons it.

March 30, 2019, 8:12 a.m.
Posts: 1055
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2018/05/culture-mountain-biking-gone-astray/

Not to say that I don’t have regrets—I do. I regret that our sport hit the mainstream doing 100 mph and totally unprepared for the havoc that was about to be wrought. That our trails are being flooded by people who don’t understand what it took to get said trails, nor what it takes to keep them, nor do they seem to care. Mostly I regret that we don’t have the infrastructure to educate these people—not that many of them would listen.

March 30, 2019, 12:42 p.m.
Posts: 622
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

I he

Posted by: craw

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2018/05/culture-mountain-biking-gone-astray/

Not to say that I don’t have regrets—I do. I regret that our sport hit the mainstream doing 100 mph and totally unprepared for the havoc that was about to be wrought. That our trails are being flooded by people who don’t understand what it took to get said trails, nor what it takes to keep them, nor do they seem to care. Mostly I regret that we don’t have the infrastructure to educate these people—not that many of them would listen.

I hear what he’s saying but I can’t agree. I’ve been riding off road since 1983 and there were always riders going for the excitement of steeps and air. What has changed is the equipment and trails that allow more riders to do this. Think of the first Repack races. It is our history.

March 30, 2019, 5:40 p.m.
Posts: 1026
Joined: June 26, 2012

Quite a few e-bikes in Squamish Alice Lake area today. I saw one middle-aged guy who managed to get himself a good way up the mountain but clearly was not all that skilled. He went ahead along a technical section and groaned every time he had to go over a big rock or root. It was quite funny to watch.


 Last edited by: D_C_ on March 30, 2019, 9:43 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 30, 2019, 8:35 p.m.
Posts: 1455
Joined: March 18, 2017

Isn’t Alice Lake a provincial park? 

E-bikes are just a bunch of betas too afraid of a moto.

March 31, 2019, 2:24 p.m.
Posts: 199
Joined: March 1, 2017

The lake is, and the Four Lakes trails are (which most people don't ride anyway), but what people refer to as 'Alice Lake' (Rupert, Entrails, the slabs etc) are not part of the Park.

March 31, 2019, 3:01 p.m.
Posts: 1055
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

A phenomena that just started happening around me is people who've been off their bike for a while (either due to injury or switching focus to some other activity) justify an ebike because they're out of biking shape. These same people just a few years ago would have gotten back on the bike, toughed out the suck and been better for the struggle back to fitness and competence. Adding a motor definitely gets you back in the game faster but is the result really better? A part of me would feel like an imposter, like yeah, I'm on my bike but I didn't have the sac to get here without a moped. The other part of me is like, this might be better.

March 31, 2019, 8:24 p.m.
Posts: 751
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

Posted by: craw

A phenomena that just started happening around me is people who've been off their bike for a while (either due to injury or switching focus to some other activity) justify an ebike because they're out of biking shape. These same people just a few years ago would have gotten back on the bike, toughed out the suck and been better for the struggle back to fitness and competence. Adding a motor definitely gets you back in the game faster but is the result really better? A part of me would feel like an imposter, like yeah, I'm on my bike but I didn't have the sac to get here without a moped. The other part of me is like, this might be better.

That's an interesting point. I've heard every type of marketing spam from "ebikes make it waaaaaayyyy easier" to "ebikes give you a way harder workout"....both coming from the same marketer (go figure). However, it is undeniable that ebikes make it easier because a motor is doing up to 80% of the work.

To your point....that's not a great thing at all for the soft rider breaking back in. Riding your way into shape means you have to build yourself up before doing multiple epic laps and hitting the far-out and high elevation stuff. Shoot, might even want to hit the gym a bit, do some spinning, or balance out your training a bit. When you're in shape, your body endures all manner of impacts and physical demands more effectively. If you tackle a big move, or have to take a staunch tumble, or make your way back from a long way out after a big bail, it really helps to be toughened up a little. If you can just waltz up to top of anything, dad-bod-a-flopping (I can't judge:) there's a good chance you're more at risk for a crappy experience. I don't care much about how it may look or how a person thinks of their self, but I really hope none of those welcome-back-soft-bods don't get themselves into a big mess.


 Last edited by: cerealkilla_ on March 31, 2019, 9:25 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 1, 2019, 6:17 a.m.
Posts: 39
Joined: Nov. 14, 2017

Lazy and out of shape is not a disability.

April 1, 2019, 6:23 a.m.
Posts: 2574
Joined: April 2, 2005

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: grambo

Posted by: shoreboy

I thought PB was trying to adopt a 'no e-bike content' policy? If it is the same press release that is posted up here, I am not surprised the PB collective went to town on it.

Nope, it's still there: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-enters-the-e-mtb-market-with-decoy.html

What Pinkbike is doing is using geo-locating to not display ebike related content to North American IP's both on the website and their social media feeds. If you direct link or search for that content you can see it from North America but it doens't display on the main page. They are trying to have it both ways because they need the advertising dollars for the Euro crowd where ebikes have already been accepted. I don't blame them from a business perspective but the cognitive dissonance is hilarious.

It appears the Brits have a huge chubby for these things. Which is strange due to the lack of long steep climbs on most of the island.

name one british bikepark with lift access.

the discussion here is quite interesting. so far

driving your gas guzzler up to the parking spot to ride your bike there = good
shuttling with your gas guzzler up the mountain to ride down with your bike = good
riding your e-bike partially powered by electricity up and down the same mountain = bad

why is using one kind of vehicle that destroys the environment to enjoy your sport considered OK but the one that could be powered with renewable energy considered bad (for whom?)


 Last edited by: Sethimus on April 1, 2019, 6:26 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
April 1, 2019, 8:36 a.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: Sethimus

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: grambo

Posted by: shoreboy

I thought PB was trying to adopt a 'no e-bike content' policy? If it is the same press release that is posted up here, I am not surprised the PB collective went to town on it.

Nope, it's still there: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-enters-the-e-mtb-market-with-decoy.html

What Pinkbike is doing is using geo-locating to not display ebike related content to North American IP's both on the website and their social media feeds. If you direct link or search for that content you can see it from North America but it doens't display on the main page. They are trying to have it both ways because they need the advertising dollars for the Euro crowd where ebikes have already been accepted. I don't blame them from a business perspective but the cognitive dissonance is hilarious.

It appears the Brits have a huge chubby for these things. Which is strange due to the lack of long steep climbs on most of the island.

name one british bikepark with lift access.

the discussion here is quite interesting. so far

driving your gas guzzler up to the parking spot to ride your bike there = good
shuttling with your gas guzzler up the mountain to ride down with your bike = good
riding your e-bike partially powered by electricity up and down the same mountain = bad

why is using one kind of vehicle that destroys the environment to enjoy your sport considered OK but the one that could be powered with renewable energy considered bad (for whom?)

The Whataboutism is strong in this post.

How about one is cycling, the other is motorsport.

This pic was taken at the outdoor/bikeshow in Vancouver a few weeks ago. Although no pendelec crankset, just add one? Volia!

https://vimeo.com/276882064


 Last edited by: Brocklanders on April 1, 2019, 3:46 p.m., edited 3 times in total.

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