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ebikes on the Shore

March 26, 2019, 8:14 a.m.
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Posted by: LoamtoHome

You know that on DNV managed land, e-bikes are not allowed and are considered the same as motorbikes..... Rocky Mountain Bikes was upset that during a demo last fall, they couldn't have ebikes. I think most people are unaware....

I think Instagram is worse than ebikes and strava....

Is this true?  The DNV has classified them the same as motorbikes?  Id be interested to see where that has been documented for reference.

March 26, 2019, 8:19 a.m.
Posts: 1200
Joined: April 25, 2003

BREAKING NEWS: Mountain moped company employee thinks it would be best if mountain mopeds are allowed on non-motorized trails.

In other surprising news, the sun rose in the east this morning and human activity has environmental impact. Groundbreaking.

March 26, 2019, 8:43 a.m.
Posts: 1111
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: FLATCH

Hey Brock, any chance you're around 50?

almost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF2X1o0FGA0

I love how the bike companies think they call the shots. Cute.

March 26, 2019, 10:09 a.m.
Posts: 64
Joined: July 7, 2010

I'm actually not against them, I'm for managing them and planning for the impacts of more users and different use types, Wade....which no land managers or e-pushers are really doing aside from expecting traditional mountain bike advocacy groups to do it for them. And as a long time volunteer I've decided that I'm personally not interested in that.

Todd

C'mon Todd, you really need to ask questions like this? Think big picture buddy. Yes, of course it will be managed, but think about how long it took groups like WORCA or NSMBA to emerge from the scene. E-bikes, are in this time right now. Saying things like "e-pushers" is kinda like a hiker in the late eighties commenting on how "knobby wheeled enthusiasts" are ruining the trails, a bit hypocritical. I don't see why mountain bikers in your headspace take this so to heart, it's really the same as windsurfers versus kite-boarders, surfers and SUP'ers.....it will all work out. And like petty said:

tashi

In other surprising news, the sun rose in the east this morning and human activity has environmental impact. Groundbreaking.

March 26, 2019, 10:12 a.m.
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: tashi

BREAKING NEWS: Mountain moped company employee thinks it would be best if mountain mopeds are allowed on non-motorized trails.

In other surprising news, the sun rose in the east this morning and human activity has environmental impact. Groundbreaking.

If you go back and read the 'MrSimmons' (note air quotes) post it's a pretty standard trolling recipe.  A pinch of sanctimony, a very (very) light dusting of non-fiction, dump in some ad hominem attack, stir in heaps of false equivalency, a bit of fatalism, more ad hominem, and then, in conclusion, just sprinkle of nihilism. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just assumed it's an anonymous poster with a provocatively chosen user name. I'd be really surprised if MrSimmons is actually Mr. Simmons. For one, Wade is fully aware that people really do "[give] a shit" about both access and the culture of mountain biking. Two, I don't think he'd comment if he didn't have anything intelligent, constructive, or at least experiential to say. 

There's also no advantage to any e~bike brand, or their representatives, to pop their heads up right now. The hard work and marketing are done, the silence from land managers is deafening, and people are buying the machines - lots of them. Now's the time for them to be engaging with dealers to make sure that when the e~bike curious customer is coming in their brands are well positioned compared to the competition - there's a lot more differentiation in the market than just comparing frames with Eagle components hung on them.

March 26, 2019, 10:27 a.m.
Posts: 1200
Joined: April 25, 2003

You're probably right Andrew.  Based on experience I also assume that Rocky's employees are more reasonable.  That's why I'm being tounge-in-cheek in response to his post, the arguments presented will unravel on their own.

March 26, 2019, 10:34 a.m.
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: Brocklanders

No one has a right to these trails, we are guests. The more these things resemble motorbikes, the further we move away from it being mountainbiking to it being a motorsport. Then who knows where it all ends up. Will we lose trail access? I guess it's up to the land managers.

My post was un-necessarily cheeky & sardonic because that's how I deal with sh*t - apologies. I have the same concerns as you, as do many people. I've already seen throttle actuated pedelecs on Seymour for example.

What is most surprising to me, that I tried to capture, is the cultural shift (adoption & acceptance) from the first big dump of snow to this spring. I feel like Rip Van Winkle. I have a number of friends and acquaintances who have gone from extolling the virtues of the self-propelled mountain bike and the local culture to explaining why their unique needs justify* an offroad pedelec.

I'm just really hoping they don't f*** it up for the rest of us. Access, keeping experienced trail builders, relationships with other users - there's a lot potentially at stake to be able to punch out a longer and faster after work lap and it definitely needs to be talked about.

*I chose 'justify' because most these folks I know seem guilty about the choice.


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on March 26, 2019, 10:34 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 26, 2019, 10:45 a.m.
Posts: 184
Joined: April 15, 2017

As healthy as this thread is/was/shall be, we will all want to begin engaging the land managers and dnv councillors on a personal email level now before the rush of emails coming from hikers who have had near misses from ebikes and wish for all wheeled objects to be removed. There is a real possibility that this will become the main issue we'll be facing whilst we debate on-line who deserves to be riding what on a particular trail. If you're going to type here, make time to type an email as well.

As much as we have a healthy and robust advocacy association, we've all seen that trail usage and trail building permitting is always seen from a land manager standpoint - if there is enough movement from one voting bloc, then that will become the reality. Make sure as mountain bikers, our deck gets stacked.

March 26, 2019, 10:59 a.m.
Posts: 78
Joined: March 14, 2017

MrSimmons can bark all he wants but you still can't ebike on DNV land and he knows it.

March 26, 2019, 11:04 a.m.
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Posted by: LoamtoHome

MrSimmons can bark all he wants but you still can't ebike on DNV land and he knows it.

Reference please.  Is there some documentation of this?

March 26, 2019, 11:48 a.m.
Posts: 1037
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: shoreboy

Posted by: LoamtoHome

MrSimmons can bark all he wants but you still can't ebike on DNV land and he knows it.

Reference please.  Is there some documentation of this?

I looked into this about 3yrs ago and found a page within the DNV bylaws that prohibited the use of motorized bikes on dnv parkland. I recall posting the link, along with a link to the Metro rules as well. The gray area for DNV was whether the trails were considered parks. 

I’ll take a look around and see if I can dig it up

March 26, 2019, 11:51 a.m.
Posts: 1111
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Just got a response from DNV

People always ask me what's the phenomenon
Yo what's up? Yo what's goin' on- Adam Yauch

March 26, 2019, 3:13 p.m.
Posts: 1434
Joined: July 11, 2014

Posted by: FlipFantasia

I just hope all these e-proponents step up for the maintenance and advocacy side like they claim will happen....after a couple decades in the game, I'm spent and pretty much done. Holding out hope that we don't see a resurgence in user conflict or overuse due to ease of speed and access, but generally people suck and are selfish, so I'm staying cynical. It's been tough the past few years even without the extra users from moto-bicycles, not sure how much more capacity our trails have at this point and I know we're seeing increasing push back against new trail development here in Whistler, so expect trails to get more congested, imo.

Thanks for all the work you've done in Whistler over the years dude. The #1 thing I think about up there is assholes on ebikes getting Lord of the Squirrels shut down. Too out of shape or not enough time on your Whistler weekend to pedal up? No problem, just rip it up on a rental ebike! Be sure to drag your brakes through all the corners on the descent too!

March 26, 2019, 4:58 p.m.
Posts: 184
Joined: April 15, 2017

Yup, "give me convenience or give me death". It's going to get weird and grim if any consensus can't be reached

I spent 8 years watching SUPs take over breaks in SoCal which just ended up in bloody skirmishes of entitlement.

March 26, 2019, 5:47 p.m.
Posts: 1037
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Brocklanders

Just got a response from DNV

found the post I was referencing earlier.

Posted by: syncro

ok here's a couple links:

http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/bylaws/Bylaws/GVRD_Bylaw_1177.pdf
http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/ID/freeside/96318_05  

with the key points being: 

Metro - “motor assisted cycle” has the same meaning as in the B.C. Motor Vehicle Act and regulations under that Act, and includes electric motor assisted cycles 

BCMVA - "cycle" means a device having any number of wheels that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and includes a motor assisted cycle, but does not include a skate board, roller skates or in-line roller skates;

Metro - 10.2 No person shall use or operate a motor assisted cycle or motor vehicle except on and within a roadway or parking lot.

so after a cursory read it would appear that on metro land ebikes are not allowed on the trails.
and for the dnv it's a bit more succinct in "Motorized Vehicles Are Not Permitted on Parks Trails"  

http://www.dnv.org/article.asp?c=425 

from this thread 3.5 years ago when we first got into a flap over ebikes

https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/the-shore-3/topic/moab-blm-bans-e-bikes-3279/?page=1

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