New posts

ebikes on the Shore

March 25, 2019, 9:22 a.m.
Posts: 1081
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: blackfly

Ran into a guy at the end of my ride today on Fromme going up Dreamweaver on a Ebike.  Told him he was not welcome, and everyone I meet gets the same lip.  If you can't go up you can't go down, and never was there any assist in the up with Fromme.  Saw an older couple exit Braemar....both on Ebikes.......older ones I guess I could give a pass but the slippery slope...

Since when was mountain biking the Shore a right rather than a privilege you had to earn?  Ah....age of entitlement.    

I suppose self policing is the only way this is going to work itself out..that is, if we all as a group agree Ebikes are wrong and not welcome, then those whom that have them will eventually move somewhere else or not ride (which is most likely for the best).  I don't like them and think that they are cheating, and I call the users of them out.  Shame works if it is continuous.  My latest bike was bought on the premise it makes the up easier (hardtail) and I am under no illusion that there is going to be a day when I can't do this any more.  But until then it will be earning my gain.

Def my inside voice. I really don't engage the empoeders. They are usually middle aged lawyer types that don't want to earn it, their loss.

I am intrigued on how these bikes make the injuries magically disappear when descending. A 45-50 pound lead weight going down a black diamond trail. Must be effortless.

March 25, 2019, 10:25 a.m.
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

I hate being the harbinger, but anyone here who hasn't noticed the massive archetypal shift this Spring on Fromme and Seymour isn't riding their bikes enough. Sorry. You can't ride up No Quarter on the weekend without being chased by someone's kitchen appliance at some point - WHIRRRRR WHIRrrrrrrr whirrrrRRRRR.

The cat is out of the bag and it's f***ing everywhere. And the thing about cats f***ing is that they multiply exponentially. And there's nothing that's going to slow down that momentum and no enforceable rule or guideline that's going to make things the way they were even a couple of years ago. Anyone thinking of e-mailing their local trail association who wants to know what they can do about it - they can advocate for uni-directional trails and clear signage before there's a serious accident now that trails like Asian Adonis are two-way-possible for more than a tiny minority of riders. That's it. Sorry again.

"But it's a different activity, they should advocate for their own access," you say. Within less than ten years half the board and builders with the NSMBA, and probably every other trail association - even WORCA - will ride offroad more with electric motor assist then solely under their own steam. Sorry.

Recently, Wade Simmons told me that in ten years half the bikes I regularly see on North Shore trails will be Pedelecs. I think he 's wrong. I think it'll be five years. There is a dam holding back purchases right now as the joiners wait for Pedelecs to be mainstream enough. And as my friend Alex says, "taking the easy way out has always been mainstream." The Dam breaks this year. More sorries.

Right now you have friends who are walking back all the venom they've ever spewed about Pedelecs. The machines are already accepted for commuting and all the Armageddon and catastrophe predicted hasn't really occurred (just endless anecdotes about assholes riding way too fast on shared resources). We're well beyond the early adoption stage with mountain Pedelecs and people are buying them right now who were looking to join a lynch mob last year. Yes, Dave Norona called it - wrap your head around that. Yeah, sorry.

North Shore shops will sell 100+ offroad Pedelecs this year. Next year it will be thrice that at least. Being an asshole to one person on a Pedelec is like killing one spider in your kitchen. It would probably be better for everyone if you just let it go. If not this year, then definitely next year, every time you walk into a local shop there'll be a 50/50 chance that someone who works there will bring up Pedelecs unsolicited. Sorry.

It's not doom-and-gloom, it's the reality. You can quit and do something else with all the free time and money you'll suddenly have. You can join and be one in a sea of e~mea culpas. Or, you can just keep pedaling your person-powered-bike in the woods with or without your like-minded friends. Sorry.

If you can't stop thinking about it on the trails then I'd recommend single speeding and harder tech-gnar descents. There's no capacity for bicycle philosophizing when you're eating your own lungs climbing No Quarter and trying to survive down Boundary...

Sorry,


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on March 25, 2019, 10:45 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 25, 2019, 12:15 p.m.
Posts: 8
Joined: May 29, 2007

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I hate being the harbinger, but anyone here who hasn't noticed the massive archetypal shift this Spring on Fromme and Seymour isn't riding their bikes enough. Sorry. You can't ride up No Quarter on the weekend without being chased by someone's kitchen appliance at some point - WHIRRRRR WHIRrrrrrrr whirrrrRRRRR.

The cat is out of the bag and it's f***ing everywhere. And the thing about cats f***ing is that they multiply exponentially. And there's nothing that's going to slow down that momentum and no enforceable rule or guideline that's going to make things the way they were even a couple of years ago. Anyone thinking of e-mailing their local trail association who wants to know what they can do about it - they can advocate for uni-directional trails and clear signage before there's a serious accident now that trails like Asian Adonis are two-way-possible for more than a tiny minority of riders. That's it. Sorry again.

"But it's a different activity, they should advocate for their own access," you say. Within less than ten years half the board and builders with the NSMBA, and probably every other trail association - even WORCA - will ride offroad more with electric motor assist then solely under their own steam. Sorry.

Recently, Wade Simmons told me that in ten years half the bikes I regularly see on North Shore trails will be Pedelecs. I think he 's wrong. I think it'll be five years. There is a dam holding back purchases right now as the joiners wait for Pedelecs to be mainstream enough. And as my friend Alex says, "taking the easy way out has always been mainstream." The Dam breaks this year. More sorries.

Right now you have friends who are walking back all the venom they've ever spewed about Pedelecs. The machines are already accepted for commuting and all the Armageddon and catastrophe predicted hasn't really occurred (just endless anecdotes about assholes riding way too fast on shared resources). We're well beyond the early adoption stage with mountain Pedelecs and people are buying them right now who were looking to join a lynch mob last year. Yes, Dave Norona called it - wrap your head around that. Yeah, sorry.

North Shore shops will sell 100+ offroad Pedelecs this year. Next year it will be thrice that at least. Being an asshole to one person on a Pedelec is like killing one spider in your kitchen. It would probably be better for everyone if you just let it go. If not this year, then definitely next year, every time you walk into a local shop there'll be a 50/50 chance that someone who works there will bring up Pedelecs unsolicited. Sorry.

It's not doom-and-gloom, it's the reality. You can quit and do something else with all the free time and money you'll suddenly have. You can join and be one in a sea of e~mea culpas. Or, you can just keep pedaling your person-powered-bike in the woods with or without your like-minded friends. Sorry.

If you can't stop thinking about it on the trails then I'd recommend single speeding and harder tech-gnar descents. There's no capacity for bicycle philosophizing when you're eating your own lungs climbing No Quarter and trying to survive down Boundary...

Sorry,

Well said Andrew. Just like all new technologies, e-bikes are only going to become more popular as they become cheaper and lighter. Being an asshole to somebody riding on the trail isn't gonna change anything. Just ride your bike of choice and STFU. If and when the land managers come up with a policy about e-bikes on public trails, then you can refer to that policy if they are not complying with it. It bugs me for a few seconds when someone passes me on their e-bike, and then I return to my own little world, and carry on with hauling my sorry ass up the trail. I still ride a human powered bike, but the time will come (in 5 years at age 60 perhaps) when it just makes sense to make the switch. Lecture me then and all you'll get is me riding away with middle finger held high.

March 25, 2019, 12:35 p.m.
Posts: 933
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I honestly can't see why people are surprised this is happening. For the most part mtb'ing is a sport/activity of people with money who like to have fun and make no mistake that people on their ebikes are having fun. There was a narrow window of opportunity maybe 3-5 years ago where some sort of plan or regulations could have been put in place before ebikes on the trails took hold. Instead it seemed the majority who were against them seemed satisfied that simply ranting about them on various social media platforms or sometimes in public would be enough to make ebikes somehow magically go away. I can remember multiple "conversations" on here and FB where hardly anyone wanted to really think about the issue, it was just yelling and name calling that ebikes were going to ruin everything. Granted the speed or lack thereof with which governments work played a significant roll in things, but it should be known by now that technology has vastly increased the pace of change when new things come along. Blink a few too many times and you're left wondering what the hell happened. As to whether ebikes will ruin everything is up for debate. I'm sure in the eyes of some they already have, but I think next 2-3 years or so will really tell the tale on that on

One thing I find ironic is the similarity in some of these conversations compared to when mtb's first started appearing on hiking trails and people said they just wanted to have fun on their mtb's. The difference now of course is that the trail network is already established and maps are readily available so it's way easier to plunk down your cash for an emachine and hit the trails. Just think about it; for the average rider who doesn't enjoy climbing, who's riding experience is all about the down and is now in a stage of life where they have less free time available but more disposable income is it any wonder why they're getting a bike that allows them to ride way more in a shorter period of time? And let's not get started on the bike industry's need to keep reinventing itself to create continued profits, the ebike thing has had them salivating at the thought of sales for a long time.

I think in the end the number of people riding ebikes will settle below 50%, maybe 1/3 of all riders as there will be a lot of burnout with ebikes. People will get tired of having done a ton of the new thing in a short period of time and will either move on to something else or just simply ride less because they don't get the same level of satisfaction out of it any more. I see the new dominant group of riders as having one of each type of bike. A pedal bike for when they want to get their climb on and maybe enjoy the reward of  going up under their own steam and an ebike for those days where they simply want to get in a quick lap in. I think the minority will be people with pedal only bikes; maybe due to cost, maybe due to stubbornness or for a significant group it will be because they enjoy the pedal and there is an intrinsic value to the work it takes to get to the top under their own power. There is no doubt that there is a reward to be had from that effort that no-ebike will ever replace. For me at least, this is why I ride.

March 25, 2019, 1:09 p.m.
Posts: 1180
Joined: April 25, 2003

I believe that Andrew is probably right. Cats out of the bag when it comes to official mountain bike spots and public perception of what a mountain bike is.

Oh well.  Get ready for more rouge trail building and poaching as the purists attempt to keep the trails quiet and tight.

March 25, 2019, 1:21 p.m.
Posts: 133
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

I just hope all these e-proponents step up for the maintenance and advocacy side like they claim will happen....after a couple decades in the game, I'm spent and pretty much done. Holding out hope that we don't see a resurgence in user conflict or overuse due to ease of speed and access, but generally people suck and are selfish, so I'm staying cynical. It's been tough the past few years even without the extra users from moto-bicycles, not sure how much more capacity our trails have at this point and I know we're seeing increasing push back against new trail development here in Whistler, so expect trails to get more congested, imo.

March 25, 2019, 2:14 p.m.
Posts: 933
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: FlipFantasia

I just hope all these e-proponents step up for the maintenance and advocacy side like they claim will happen....after a couple decades in the game, I'm spent and pretty much done. Holding out hope that we don't see a resurgence in user conflict or overuse due to ease of speed and access, but generally people suck and are selfish, so I'm staying cynical. It's been tough the past few years even without the extra users from moto-bicycles, not sure how much more capacity our trails have at this point and I know we're seeing increasing push back against new trail development here in Whistler, so expect trails to get more congested, imo.

Do you think that there are currently enough pedal mtb people doing their part? Granted Whistler is a different environment with a much higher level of transient riders so it’s probably skewed towards not enough in your locale but I would guess that overall there’s not enough people getting involved everywhere. 

I also wonder about the ratio between ebike converts and brand new riders on ebikes and their relationship with volunteerism. I would guess that a good chunk of those converts were not involved before they switched.  

From a volunteerism standpoint maybe it’s time a paradigm is set, something along the lines of for every X number of laps you do you should be putting in Y number of hours/days into trail maintenance or advocacy. I know for a long time it’s been stated as a day’s labour or a day’s wages but there hasn’t really been any sort of qualifier attached to that.

March 25, 2019, 3:46 p.m.
Posts: 1081
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Recently, Wade Simmons told me that in ten years half the bikes I regularly see on North Shore trails will be Pedelecs. I think he 's wrong. I think it'll be five years. There is a dam holding back purchases right now as the joiners wait for Pedelecs to be mainstream enough. And as my friend Alex says, "taking the easy way out has always been mainstream." The Dam breaks this year. More sorries.

Right now you have friends who are walking back all the venom they've ever spewed about Pedelecs. The machines are already accepted for commuting and all the Armageddon and catastrophe predicted hasn't really occurred (just endless anecdotes about assholes riding way too fast on shared resources). We're well beyond the early adoption stage with mountain Pedelecs and people are buying them right now who were looking to join a lynch mob last year. Yes, Dave Norona called it - wrap your head around that. Yeah, sorry.

North Shore shops will sell 100+ offroad Pedelecs this year. Next year it will be thrice that at least. Being an asshole to one person on a Pedelec is like killing one spider in your kitchen. It would probably be better for everyone if you just let it go. If not this year, then definitely next year, every time you walk into a local shop there'll be a 50/50 chance that someone who works there will bring up Pedelecs unsolicited. Sorry.

It's not doom-and-gloom, it's the reality. You can quit and do something else with all the free time and money you'll suddenly have. You can join and be one in a sea of e~mea culpas. Or, you can just keep pedaling your person-powered-bike in the woods with or without your like-minded friends. Sorry.

If you can't stop thinking about it on the trails then I'd recommend single speeding and harder tech-gnar descents. There's no capacity for bicycle philosophizing when you're eating your own lungs climbing No Quarter and trying to survive down Boundary...

Sorry,

Um ok. The irony is our beloved NSMBA says its up to the land managers, don't want to rock the sponsorship boat..... As these things get faster, lighter and not being able to tell which ones are legit pedal assist and those that are hacked and pretty much a motorbike. I see trail use issues? Just because the bike industry and their shills are telling us how it is, don't expect this to end well. They could care less as long as they sell these motorbikes.

No one has a right to these trails, we are guests. The more these things resemble motorbikes, the further we move away from it being mountainbiking to it being a motorsport. Then who knows where it all ends up. Will we lose trail access? I guess it's up to the land managers.

Sorry,


 Last edited by: Brocklanders on March 25, 2019, 3:50 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 25, 2019, 4:46 p.m.
Posts: 325
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: FlipFantasia

, but generally people suck and are selfish,.

hmm... ?

March 25, 2019, 5:10 p.m.
Posts: 325
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Hey Brock, any chance you're around 50?

March 25, 2019, 6:55 p.m.
Posts: 65
Joined: March 14, 2017

You know that on DNV managed land, e-bikes are not allowed and are considered the same as motorbikes..... Rocky Mountain Bikes was upset that during a demo last fall, they couldn't have ebikes. I think most people are unaware....

I think Instagram is worse than ebikes and strava....


 Last edited by: LoamtoHome on March 25, 2019, 6:56 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 25, 2019, 9:45 p.m.
Posts: 504
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

i bet most the people posting here (and elsewhere on this forum) will own one of each in 5 years time. i probably will.

March 25, 2019, 11:19 p.m.
Posts: 64
Joined: July 7, 2010

Humans.....relax and read what you have been typing - AndrewMajor is quoting me on ebike take-over timeline, Syncro is already speculating on ebike burnout, Flipfantasia is whinning about trail maintenane and advocacy....and that's just a recap of page 8 on this thread....pathetic. Stop the panic, we are live hypocritical lives, yet some of you still need to point fingers and criminalize ebikes. Why? 

Look around your life, nothing has changed? That big screen 8K t.v., that lithium mining Atacama desert nightmare Tesla in the drive way, your new $2000 Apple you're typing on, how about the $1.38 liter gas you filled up your Volvo with to drive to the new Fromme parking lot built with fossil fuels, internet, chainsaws (used to cut tress down to build the trails you ride - remember there used to be hand saws), electricity, ski chairlifts. airplane travel versus boat or sail powered vessel....I mean we really could go on forever. You will die, I will die, does it matter what our opinions are in the big picture? You are conceited if you think so, collective conscience will always prevail; if it's meant to be, it will be.

Stop the lunacy and embarrassment, the commentary is petty . If ebikes take over, so be it, if they die, well then I guess it was a fad. Either way, I will still be riding my bike in one capacity or another, who really gives a shit anyhow?

March 26, 2019, 12:28 a.m.
Posts: 933
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: MrSimmons

Humans.....relax and read what you have been typing - AndrewMajor is quoting me on ebike take-over timeline, Syncro is already speculating on ebike burnout, Flipfantasia is whinning about trail maintenane and advocacy....and that's just a recap of page 8 on this thread....pathetic. Stop the panic, we are live hypocritical lives, yet some of you still need to point fingers and criminalize ebikes. Why? 

Look around your life, nothing has changed? That big screen 8K t.v., that lithium mining Atacama desert nightmare Tesla in the drive way, your new $2000 Apple you're typing on, how about the $1.38 liter gas you filled up your Volvo with to drive to the new Fromme parking lot built with fossil fuels, internet, chainsaws (used to cut tress down to build the trails you ride - remember there used to be hand saws), electricity, ski chairlifts. airplane travel versus boat or sail powered vessel....I mean we really could go on forever. You will die, I will die, does it matter what our opinions are in the big picture? You are conceited if you think so, collective conscience will always prevail; if it's meant to be, it will be.

Stop the lunacy and embarrassment, the commentary is petty . If ebikes take over, so be it, if they die, well then I guess it was a fad. Either way, I will still be riding my bike in one capacity or another, who really gives a shit anyhow?

lol - it’s a good thing...

actually no, F.U. with calling Flip a whiner. back to the troll bin for you.

March 26, 2019, 7:30 a.m.
Posts: 133
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

I'm actually not against them, I'm for managing them and planning for the impacts of more users and different use types, Wade....which no land managers or e-pushers are really doing aside from expecting traditional mountain bike advocacy groups to do it for them. And as a long time volunteer I've decided that I'm personally not interested in that.

Todd


 Last edited by: FlipFantasia on March 26, 2019, 7:31 a.m., edited 1 time in total.

Forum jump: