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ebikes on the Shore

Dec. 4, 2021, 5:31 p.m.
Posts: 383
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

When Instagram becomes annoying. 

https://youtu.be/SlKao_Pox5A

Dec. 4, 2021, 5:57 p.m.
Posts: 1133
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Ride.DMC

Welcome to the Internet!  You will see a lot of this kind of thing here.

haha!  Oh don't I know it - as well as being guilty of it myself the odd time. I was just a bit surprised to see it from RAH that's all.

If you are putting a motor on your bike to achieve things, you may have missed the point of recreating with a bicycle. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to cycling than achieving "goals." Why do you feel the need to go a further distance than what time allows?

Lots of people say ebikes are about accessibility but another argument is that they are about imposing unreasonable standards on everyone. Social media is the ultimate purveyor of unrealistic standards as are websites like this one and pinkbike. Why are there no stories about people just loving riding their mountain bike around the delta watershed or the Don Valley in Toronto. Instead it is always about some epic adventure that only the highest trained athletes can achieve. I'm not complaining about the epic tails but it would be nice to see the diversity of how people love riding bikes. This is why I enjoy Andrew's articles as they often focus on the gear you already have but finding new ways to enjoy it.

In terms of touring with a bike. Here are the aspects I have always appreciated.

1) inexpensive - ebikes ruin this aspect obviously

2) self sufficient (all you need is food and rest) - ebikes ruin this as you would always be trying to find somewhere to plug in  your contraption

3) free to go anywhere as long as you can carry enough food - ebikes ruin this due to power constraints

4) bike touring is such a beautifully simple activity. You ride, you eat, you rest, repeat. Charging and monitoring power complicates this unnecessarily. I really do think that people need to get in touch with themselves. If you are tired, rest or slow down. Why do people feel the need to always go far fast, indeterminate of how they feel? So much so that they are willing to put a motor on their bike in order to avoid living their reality. 

What does adding a motor do for bike touring? Certainly it makes it less work. It allows you to go faster. But what is the benefit? Who cares if you go faster? Why do you need to go further? Maybe just enjoy being you and achieving what you are able to.  I'm not saying that I am not guilty of this same trap but I stopped before getting a motor to increase my ftp and I'm learning to be happier with what I have rather than always pushing myself to achieve goals I didn't even consciously set for myself.

Dec. 4, 2021, 7:14 p.m.
Posts: 1921
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

...you may have missed the point of recreating with a bicycle. ...Why do you feel the need to go a further distance than what time allows? ...Why do you need to go further? Maybe just enjoy being you and achieving what you are able to.

Ok, so a serious question here. Why do you feel it's ok for you to tell me how I am supposed to do something or how I am supposed to "enjoy being me" with something that has not the slightest thing to do with you? You probably don't see it, but the piousness of telling me how I should enjoy my life is pretty damn galling considering that you're not my doctor, we're not related and we don't even know each other beyond the digits on the screen.Even if we did know each other IRL it's still outta line for you to be dictating to someone else in that manner.

Everything you need to know about why I might consider doing a giant tour on an ebike I've already stated and it seems you've either missed it or chosen to ignore as it doesn't mesh with your own personal agenda. If you go back to my post about it you's see that I said I'd prefer to do that type of trip about under my own steam and then said how using an ebike would make it more manageable in terms of the time commitment. Getting 5 or 6 months of free time to do a trip like that is not something that's easily obtainable and I would have to quit my job in order to do it as I know I couldn't get a leave. The points you've raised have merit, but they don't have enough merit that you get to impose your belief on the topic onto someone else.

And then to top it off there this from only a few pages back...

Posted by: RAHrider

I'm interested to see where ebikes go as a form of transportation.

I would guess that being interested to see where ebikes go as a form of transportation might include them being used for a 3500km or 11,000km road trip that includes all sorts of terrain - from paved roads to gravel roads to trails.

...

On a side note, WTF is happening around here with the communication? Is it just me or does it seem things are getting misconstrued and reiterated as something other than what was initially said too often? Personally I think it's good if people disagree with something and can bring a good counter argument with some evidence to support their case, but this business of misrepresenting what someone has said and then using that to call nonsense is total bs. It's like things are descending into nothing but binary thinking which makes any sort of discussion next to impossible.


 Last edited by: syncro on Dec. 4, 2021, 7:15 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 4, 2021, 8:43 p.m.
Posts: 449
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: RAHrider

...you may have missed the point of recreating with a bicycle. ...Why do you feel the need to go a further distance than what time allows? ...Why do you need to go further? Maybe just enjoy being you and achieving what you are able to.

Ok, so a serious question here. Why do you feel it's ok for you to tell me how I am supposed to do something or how I am supposed to "enjoy being me" with something that has not the slightest thing to do with you? You probably don't see it, but the piousness of telling me how I should enjoy my life is pretty damn galling considering that you're not my doctor, we're not related and we don't even know each other beyond the digits on the screen.Even if we did know each other IRL it's still outta line for you to be dictating to someone else in that manner.

Everything you need to know about why I might consider doing a giant tour on an ebike I've already stated and it seems you've either missed it or chosen to ignore as it doesn't mesh with your own personal agenda. If you go back to my post about it you's see that I said I'd prefer to do that type of trip about under my own steam and then said how using an ebike would make it more manageable in terms of the time commitment. Getting 5 or 6 months of free time to do a trip like that is not something that's easily obtainable and I would have to quit my job in order to do it as I know I couldn't get a leave. The points you've raised have merit, but they don't have enough merit that you get to impose your belief on the topic onto someone else.

And then to top it off there this from only a few pages back...

Posted by: RAHrider

I'm interested to see where ebikes go as a form of transportation.

I would guess that being interested to see where ebikes go as a form of transportation might include them being used for a 3500km or 11,000km road trip that includes all sorts of terrain - from paved roads to gravel roads to trails.

...

On a side note, WTF is happening around here with the communication? Is it just me or does it seem things are getting misconstrued and reiterated as something other than what was initially said too often? Personally I think it's good if people disagree with something and can bring a good counter argument with some evidence to support their case, but this business of misrepresenting what someone has said and then using that to call nonsense is total bs. It's like things are descending into nothing but binary thinking which makes any sort of discussion next to impossible.

No offense but I think it might be just you. You chose to take rahs  comments that way. I think you might need to take into account that when someone says "you should..."  on the internet, they often mean that in a generic, "in my opinion" sort of way, and not as a prescriptive personal comment directed at you as a person. 

In fact, like you said, he doesn't even know you personally,  so don't take it as a personal comment, even if it is actually is meant as such. Who cares?

Dec. 4, 2021, 9:54 p.m.
Posts: 1133
Joined: May 11, 2018

Maybe try dialing things back from 11 sometime? Not everything is "imposed" or "argument". Sometimes it's just opinion or preference. Maybe the issue you are having is that you take every difference of opinion as a personal attack. 

It isn't gatekeeping either when we discuss the merit of ebike or not on huge month(s) long tours. Personally (and it's important for you to realize that this is my opinion not something being imposed on you syncro) I think an ebike would take away from the expirerence of a long tour. The drawbacks of the ebike would not (IN MY OPIONION) outweigh the benefits of going further faster. Especially when the only reason to go further is for the sake of it. You may have a different opinion and I am happy for you to run your life how you like.

Dec. 4, 2021, 11:43 p.m.
Posts: 1921
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Kenny

No offense but I think it might be just you. You chose to take rahs  comments that way. I think you might need to take into account that when someone says "you should..."  on the internet, they often mean that in a generic, "in my opinion" sort of way, and not as a prescriptive personal comment directed at you as a person. 

In fact, like you said, he doesn't even know you personally,  so don't take it as a personal comment, even if it is actually is meant as such. Who cares?

Hey, I fully agree that parts of his comments were general observations and personal opinion, but considering the flow of the conversation and that some of the points raised were pretty specific to what I had said it didn't seem that his response to those points were in the proverbial you sense and came across as directed at what I'd said. I don't have a problem that he sees ebike use a different way, that's not the issue. The issue I had was that he seemed to be telling me that I should do or think about things a certain way. So I pointed that out and in response he quoted me directly and seemed to double down with telling me how I should enjoy riding my bike. The thing is, whether I misread RAH and it was the proverbial you or it was me specifically, telling anyone that they should do their thing a certain way because he feels the other way is ridiculous is a crappy way to discuss something. It seems to be a common theme in the ebike conversations, that those who don't like them seem like they have this moral authority to tell others how to ride a bike or what kind of bike to use. And this isn't the first time the issues come up here either.

There are plenty of valid arguments for not using an ebike, some of which RAH mentioned, and there are also plenty of valid arguments for using one. At the end of the day my point is that just because someone doesn't like them or doesn't see the value in them it's justification to tell other people how to think or do something. Anyway, now that this horse has been beat to death once again maybe you can see where I was coming from.

Dec. 4, 2021, 11:50 p.m.
Posts: 1921
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

Personally (and it's important for you to realize that this is my opinion not something being imposed on you syncro) I think an ebike would take away from the expirerence of a long tour. The drawbacks of the ebike would not (IN MY OPIONION) outweigh the benefits of going further faster. Especially when the only reason to go further is for the sake of it. You may have a different opinion and I am happy for you to run your life how you like.

Hey I totally get that and I even said that in my previous post that my preference would be to do it under my own power. I thought I was pretty clear and specific about my reasoning as to why I'd consider an ebike in a specific circumstance and you just seemed to shit on that and call it ridiculous along with a few other choice general comments.

I dunno, maybe I'm asking for too much in terms of being able to have discussion on these sorts of things or expecting a different use of language in the way the back and forth happens.

Dec. 5, 2021, 5:58 a.m.
Posts: 838
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

I suspect the bike/tech industries will make a lot of this discussion moot in the next 3-5 years with the release of the v-bike. Instead of dealing with a heavy machine sporting batteries and a motor the v-biker can just plug into the internet and get the feel/experience of riding a real bicycle without the annoying parts of actually pedaling or having to go outside. Any style of bike or terrain can be selected. You can N+1 your bikes without the current issues around cost, supply chains or storage. Trail access won't be an issue nor will the need to do any maintenance. Injuries from crashes will be history.

Want to tour across Canada or some other long journey, but don't have the time or the fitness to make it happen? No problem. Just come home on a Friday to your pre-setup v-bike touring rig. Plug in the normal v-bike sensory apparatus, but this time add a feeding tube and a high capacity adult diaper. Run the tour at high speed so you cover more ground each real world hour. Don't tell anyone when you fast forward over all of Saskatchewan! The v-bike tour operator will have real human cyclists out there on the route riding and recording live feeds so your experience is accurate with up to date data!!!

Share your v-tour experiences with your family and co-workers during the week. Regal them with cool side trip anecdotes like how you took a detour and solo'd the Northface of Robson and then base jumped off!! Or how you paid extra to ride with Brad Pitt's official avatar through all of Manitoba. He is as cool as you would expect! When the odd skeptical person throws out comment about it "...not being a real bike tour." You let them know that not everyone has the willpower and stamina to sit in an adult diaper for 60hrs in their basement over a whole weekend and you can show them the feeding tube callouses as well. Heck can their brains handle a Super Duper Mega Boost 20BGbps VR download rate? Probably not! Haters gonna hate!

The best bit is that the whole v-bike experience is incredibly green. No actual bikes or travel is required. Standards and bike tech can change weekly. The bike industry can charge and arm and a leg for v-riders to have the latest bike skin downloads. I mean nobody who is really into v-biking would want to ride last week's tech would they? Who needs to deal with supply chain issues when you money and bike tech can be swapped in micro seconds through the network. Not when all you social media contacts are instantly updated on how awesome you are...or are not. The future is "v".

Dec. 5, 2021, 8:35 a.m.
Posts: 18132
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Lol, awesome.  But you forget about Swift. Your future is almost here. 

Also keep in mind batteries are banned from airplane cargo holds.  No ebikes permitted on flights to Tuk or anywhere I would tour.

Dec. 5, 2021, 11:23 a.m.
Posts: 14448
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

^^ Can’t you pop the battery off and bring it in your carry-on bag?  

Zwift.  And it’s great for off season fitness.

I kinda like the idea of e-bike touring. True motorcycles don’t appeal at all to me, and I don’t want to grind out a 100km on a bike loaded to the hilt with bags and supplies at 10-15kph. But strap a battery and motor to it and that 100km point to point is a 3.5 hr e-assist? Seems compelling, would actually like to test out a rig like that.

Charging is indeed the real downside in this scenario.


 Last edited by: Couch_Surfer on Dec. 5, 2021, 11:24 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 5, 2021, 11:50 a.m.
Posts: 146
Joined: March 1, 2017

Seeing how unreliable E bikes can be, I wouldn't even risk riding to Lions Bay on one. Maybe in 5 years when they will (hopefully....) have proper sealing from the elements and drive units that don't have plastic cogs.....

Dec. 5, 2021, 4:04 p.m.
Posts: 18132
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

^^ Can’t you pop the battery off and bring it in your carry-on bag?  

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/plan/baggage/restricted-and-prohibited-items.html#/

160 Watt hours max acc to Air Canada.    The first ebike I just googled had a 500 Wh battery on a simple commuter

Dec. 5, 2021, 4:40 p.m.
Posts: 232
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: Vikb

I suspect the bike/tech industries will make a lot of this discussion moot in the next 3-5 years with the release of the v-bike. Instead of dealing with a heavy machine sporting batteries and a motor the v-biker can just plug into the internet and get the feel/experience of riding a real bicycle without the annoying parts of actually pedaling or having to go outside. Any style of bike or terrain can be selected. You can N+1 your bikes without the current issues around cost, supply chains or storage. Trail access won't be an issue nor will the need to do any maintenance. Injuries from crashes will be history.

Want to tour across Canada or some other long journey, but don't have the time or the fitness to make it happen? No problem. Just come home on a Friday to your pre-setup v-bike touring rig. Plug in the normal v-bike sensory apparatus, but this time add a feeding tube and a high capacity adult diaper. Run the tour at high speed so you cover more ground each real world hour. Don't tell anyone when you fast forward over all of Saskatchewan! The v-bike tour operator will have real human cyclists out there on the route riding and recording live feeds so your experience is accurate with up to date data!!!

Share your v-tour experiences with your family and co-workers during the week. Regal them with cool side trip anecdotes like how you took a detour and solo'd the Northface of Robson and then base jumped off!! Or how you paid extra to ride with Brad Pitt's official avatar through all of Manitoba. He is as cool as you would expect! When the odd skeptical person throws out comment about it "...not being a real bike tour." You let them know that not everyone has the willpower and stamina to sit in an adult diaper for 60hrs in their basement over a whole weekend and you can show them the feeding tube callouses as well. Heck can their brains handle a Super Duper Mega Boost 20BGbps VR download rate? Probably not! Haters gonna hate!

The best bit is that the whole v-bike experience is incredibly green. No actual bikes or travel is required. Standards and bike tech can change weekly. The bike industry can charge and arm and a leg for v-riders to have the latest bike skin downloads. I mean nobody who is really into v-biking would want to ride last week's tech would they? Who needs to deal with supply chain issues when you money and bike tech can be swapped in micro seconds through the network. Not when all you social media contacts are instantly updated on how awesome you are...or are not. The future is "v".

I think it's already here Vik. Maybe you don't use Strava (good call), but people post their virtual 'bike rides' all the time. Apparently you no longer even need to go outside to tour the alps! I get it if it helps you sit on your bike trainer longer, but why would anyone else be interested?

Dec. 6, 2021, 5:52 a.m.
Posts: 838
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

I think e-bikes ---> Zwift are intermediary steps as we wait for the rest of the tech to develop. We've got blockchain [garages] and NFTs [bikes and fancy upgrades]. We've got the visuals from lots of popular routes...including POV on many MTB trails. We just need the last bit that gets the info into our brains in such a way that it's easy to forget we are at home wearing an adult diaper and feeding tube....and rather we feel our lungs/muscles working and wind on our face, etc.... I'm pretty sure Elon is working on this right now.  https://neuralink.com/

Of course in keeping with one of the main aims of this tech there won't be any training/skill required to operate a pro athlete level and the "pain cave" feeling of pushing yourself to the limit will get dialed down to 2 so it's far more pleasant.

When we are in wheelchairs at the nursing home telling anyone foolish enough to slowdown near us too long how we used to ride mountain bikes...like real bikes outside on dirt! They'll think that's both hard to believe [humans outside the biodome] and so quaint to think about humans moving without motors. That's not even possible is it???


 Last edited by: Vikb on Dec. 6, 2021, 5:54 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Dec. 6, 2021, 6:01 a.m.
Posts: 838
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

Posted by: skooks

I think it's already here Vik. Maybe you don't use Strava (good call), but people post their virtual 'bike rides' all the time. Apparently you no longer even need to go outside to tour the alps! I get it if it helps you sit on your bike trainer longer, but why would anyone else be interested?

I'm social media light. I use the messaging functions and interest group functions since it's that or cut myself off from a big chunk of the world, but ya I don't pretend race other people via my phone. Most of the SM experience is negative and so as I cut down on my use of it I found my quality of life improved. 

In terms of why people use SM...those companies have hired the smartest humans on the planet for understanding how to make people do things regardless of what the want to do or what's good for them. Anyone who thinks they can out smart those folks is deluding themselves. Most people think they are the organ grinder when it comes to SM, but they 100% the dancing monkey.

So those folks posting v-rides on Strava have pretty much no choice. Dance monkey! Dance!

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