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ebikes on the Shore

Aug. 19, 2021, 2:44 a.m.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

You seem to have a pretty low opinion of the care provided to patients by physicians in general. I really didn't want to come on here and defend my personal practice but I will say that what you describe in no way resembles my own practice. Every person I treat for a heart attack I personally follow up, prescribe exercise, diet and smoking cessation (if needed) in addition to drugs that aid cardiac healing and prevent future heart attacks. My office waiting room has healthy cookbooks for patients to peruse. I even have a library that patients can borrow books from on meditation, stress reduction and better ways to deal with stress and anxiety (often the reason they smoke).

Have I found ebikes particularly effective for cardiac rehabilitation after a myocardial infarction (a heart attack), not really. Do some of my patients enjoy riding them - absolutely! Do I consider what they do on their ebike exercise - not usually. Most of what they do on an ebike I classify as movement, which can be good for joints, mobility and mental health but really isn't any more exercise than a trip to Costco.

Again, I'm happy people like riding e bikes. I have loved bikes for decades. I ride one every day (just about). For me attaching a motor to a bike only takes away from my enjoyment. Cutting my commute by 15 minutes only means 15 less minutes riding my bike. I think the idea of a motorized vehicle with the throttle in the pedals is kind of a silly invention, but if it does it for some, good on them. I'm certainly not going to sit around and praise ebikes for getting my patients out doing the bare minimum activity. After they tell me about their great bike ride, I ask them how hard they were breathing and then tell them that it's great they are getting outside and breathing fresh air but then remind them that they need to dedicate some time to getting their heart rate up and working up a sweat.

If people would like to rant about their shitty health care, go ahead. I'll read the whole thing and learn from your experiences. It's hard to know where our system let's people down without listening to their bad experiences.

Do I have a pretty low opinion of the care provided to patients by physicians in general? No, definitely not. Do I think that the areas of physical activity and nutrition could be better integrated into the general care that people receive? Absolutely. Again, please don't take my comments as a direct attack on your practice as I don't know how you practice. In fact, what you describe sounds very close to my vision of what health care should be, much more proactive than reactive. And in that regard I'm talking the entire health care system here where there should be far more resources put into preventative care that would end up saving us huge dollars on reactive care. In some ways I could draw an analogy with the Four Pillars approach in dealing with substance use.

Your comments about how you view ebikes is what interests me and what I have questions about. For example, I think you hit on a critically important factor with the statement that some of your patients enjoy riding ebikes but seem to miss why the enjoyment factor is so important. The benefit of any physical activity is directly limited to how consistently an individual participates in it. The best physical activity routine in the world provides no benefit to an individual if they don't do it. To back that up there is research that shows the importance of enjoyment in physical activity or exercise routines in regards to participation rates, both over the short and long terms. I've had 25 years working with diverse populations from athletes to the physically disabled and have witnessed myself how the enjoyment factor can have significant affects on participation rates. So if people like riding their ebikes but aren't keen on their regular bikes then over the long term the ebikes will provide more benefit simply due to the fact that people are more likely to continue using them. Now granted, there is a caveat when it comes to ebikes that amount of assistance people use can significantly affect the benefits, but that is tempered against the outcomes of some activity vs no activity.

You mention you don't consider what some patients do on their ebikes as not exercise, I'm curious as to why not and how you're measuring that? Do you have HR data from their e-cycling sessions to compare against other forms of activity? And most importantly, are you considering that the enjoyment factor can affect people's perceptions of their effort level? I'm purposely bolding that sentence due to it's importance as there is a strong correlation between higher perceived levels of enjoyment and lower perceived levels of exertion. To wit, there is actual research on this very topic by Sperlich et al with respect to ebikes no less, where the researchers found that subjects on ebikes had higher enjoyment levels and lower perceptions of exertion compared to regular bikes.

Quote: Sperlich et al.

"The present investigation on the biomechanical, cardiorespiratory, and metabolic responses, as well as perceived effort and enjoyment indicates that, in comparison with conventional cycling, e-biking in varying terrain involves (1) lower muscle activation, (2) reduced cardiorespiratory and metabolic effort, and (3) less perceived exertion with more enjoyment. According to present standards, the self-selected intensity of electrically assisted cycling was sufficient to meet present guidelines for moderate-intensity physical activity. Thus, regular use of the e-bike could well facilitate and promote more frequent and/or prolonged exercise by sedentary women."

While the exertion levels on the pedal bikes were higher, the important consideration is that more fun equals more likelihood of participating in an activity. Another study by Smith-Ryan (Enjoyment of high-intensity interval training in an overweight/obese cohort: a short report) found over the course of the study that perception of enjoyment increased and perception of effort decreased even though the actual intensities increased over time. And finally, in a study by Hagberg et al. they found that

Quote: Hagberg et al.

"The present study shows that enjoyment of exercise is associated with exercise level, and that enjoyment of exercise can be increased in the long term by a health-care based intervention. Making exercise more enjoyable can contribute to achieving this long-term adherence to physical exercise."

In this let's not forget that exercise can be qualified as pretty much anything that elevates heart rate above sedentary levels and it doesn't have to be strenuous to provide benefit. The thing I find telling, and it relates to your previous post where I first raised my objections, is in your last paragraph where you say that attaching a motor takes away from your enjoyment. That is totally fine and you don't have to like it, but it also shouldn't affect your perception of how an ebike can beneficial to others.

And just to reiterate I don't think we have a shitty health care system. I think we have a good health care system that operates quite well considering the constraints it's under such as funding and staffing limitations. I think our biggest fault though lies in it being a system to fix things when they go wrong as opposed to being a mechanism to help prevent things from going wrong in the first place. In my perfect world health care is always available for emergent and urgent care situations from traffic/workplace accidents to genetic conditions such as arthritis etc because it's not loaded down dealing with illness related to poor lifestyle habits such as lack of exercise, poor nutrition, substance use, smoking, etc.

Refs:

Hagberg, L.A., Lindahl, B., Nyberg, L. and Hellénius, M.-L. (2009), Importance of enjoyment when promoting physical exercise. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 19: 740-747. DOI 10.1111/j.1600-0838.2008.00844.x

Smith-Ryan, A.E. (2017), Enjoyment of high-intensity interval training in an overweight/obese cohort: a short report. Clin Physiol Funct Imaging, 37: 89-93. DOI 10.1111/cpf.12262

Sperlich, B., Zinner, C., Hebert-Losier, K., Born, D-P., Holmberg, H-C. (2012). Biomechanical, cardiorespiratory, metabolic and perceived responses to electrically assisted cycling. European Journal of Applied Physiology, 112(12), 4015–4025. DOI 10.1007/s00421-012-2382-0


 Last edited by: syncro on Aug. 19, 2021, 3:03 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: sp
Aug. 19, 2021, 8:17 a.m.
Posts: 2126
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: RAHrider
Good points...

And you have just perfectly summarized why ebikes are a ridiculous invention. Who ever thought of inventing a weakly powered motorcycle that has a throttle built into some cranks you have to spin with your feet. 

Could you imagine a 500cc motorcycle that has pedals you spin? It would be stupid. Why do it with a weak electric motor?

You generally don’t understand why someone would like a small commuter vehicle that can use bike infrastructure, ride on the road, is easy to propel, provides some light exercise while committing, while avoiding the insurance, parking and licensing costs of a motorcycle?

An example: I’m planning on ditching my Outback for a long tail e-bike that can take both my kids; it’ll reduce my transportation costs significantly and make the stupid puttering around town that is 90% of my driving far more enjoyable.  Electric moto is just more expensive and less flexible and more dangerous for my use.

Aug. 19, 2021, 9:50 a.m.
Posts: 14452
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: RAHrider
Good points...

And you have just perfectly summarized why ebikes are a ridiculous invention. Who ever thought of inventing a weakly powered motorcycle that has a throttle built into some cranks you have to spin with your feet. 

Could you imagine a 500cc motorcycle that has pedals you spin? It would be stupid. Why do it with a weak electric motor?

You generally don’t understand why someone would like a small commuter vehicle that can use bike infrastructure, ride on the road, is easy to propel, provides some light exercise while committing, while avoiding the insurance, parking and licensing costs of a motorcycle?

An example: I’m planning on ditching my Outback for a long tail e-bike that can take both my kids; it’ll reduce my transportation costs significantly and make the stupid puttering around town that is 90% of my driving far more enjoyable.  Electric moto is just more expensive and less flexible and more dangerous for my use.

I totally understand why someone would want a small commuter vehicle that can use bike infrastructure, is easy to propel, gets around insurance and licensing costs.

I don't see how that's attached to using one's feet to soft-pedal vs using one's wrist to throttle.

Aug. 19, 2021, 1:15 p.m.
Posts: 2126
Joined: April 25, 2003

I believe his premise is that you might as well get a high powered e moto instead, therefore e-bike commuters with throttles are ridiculous.

I suggest that they’re practical in ways that an e-moto isn’t. Personally I don’t care if there’s a throttle or just e-assist, either is useful for me.  The important things are that it can go where bikes can, is cheap to buy and light enough to store easily. E-motos I believe require insurance, have to stay on the roads, and are fucking heavy.

Also you don’t get to pedal. I like pedaling. I don’t think I’d be running an e-long tail without any pedaling input, no one I know rides that way.


 Last edited by: tashi on Aug. 19, 2021, 1:18 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 19, 2021, 2:16 p.m.
Posts: 14452
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Posted by: tashi

I believe his premise is that you might as well get a high powered e moto instead, therefore e-bike commuters with throttles are ridiculous.

I suggest that they’re practical in ways that an e-moto isn’t. Personally I don’t care if there’s a throttle or just e-assist, either is useful for me. The important things are that it can go where bikes can, is cheap to buy and light enough to store easily. E-motos I believe require insurance, have to stay on the roads, and are fucking heavy.

Also you don’t get to pedal. I like pedaling. I don’t think I’d be running an e-long tail without any pedaling input, no one I know rides that way.

Any e-bike could be powered via pedals or via twist throttle, and the key value props in choosing an e-bike for commuter use case seems to be in avoiding licensing and insurance requirements / access to bike routes / ease of storage.

So if two bikes (1 throttle, 1 pedal-assist) are built with the same weight and the same top speed/power output, why does the method in which one engages the motor matter to the licensing and insurance requirements?


 Last edited by: Couch_Surfer on Aug. 19, 2021, 2:18 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 19, 2021, 2:27 p.m.
Posts: 1939
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

^^^

In the scope of the discussion an ebike = pedal assist and not throttle control. Ideally we’re talking a fairly traditional bicycle that has a battery operated pedal assist motor of some sort, either hub drive or crank drive. The idea of battery powered mopeds with fake/useless pedals does not apply, it’s about a bicycle that must be pedalled in order to receive assistance from the motor.


 Last edited by: syncro on Aug. 19, 2021, 2:28 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 19, 2021, 3:12 p.m.
Posts: 14452
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

^^ a distinction without a difference

Aug. 19, 2021, 3:38 p.m.
Posts: 2126
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: tashi

I believe his premise is that you might as well get a high powered e moto instead, therefore e-bike commuters with throttles are ridiculous.

I suggest that they’re practical in ways that an e-moto isn’t. Personally I don’t care if there’s a throttle or just e-assist, either is useful for me. The important things are that it can go where bikes can, is cheap to buy and light enough to store easily. E-motos I believe require insurance, have to stay on the roads, and are fucking heavy.

Also you don’t get to pedal. I like pedaling. I don’t think I’d be running an e-long tail without any pedaling input, no one I know rides that way.

Any e-bike could be powered via pedals or via twist throttle, and the key value props in choosing an e-bike for commuter use case seems to be in avoiding licensing and insurance requirements / access to bike routes / ease of storage.

So if two bikes (1 throttle, 1 pedal-assist) are built with the same weight and the same top speed/power output, why does the method in which one engages the motor matter to the licensing and insurance requirements?

I have no idea, sounds like a question for the regulator.

Aug. 19, 2021, 4:33 p.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug. 12, 2006

It appears that most people railing on about pedal assist ebikes have never ridden one.  For those who say that you don't get exercise riding one, I call BS.  I am 69.  I ride with a heart rate monitor.  When I compare a ride with my ebike or gravel bike, I see similar heart rates over the same period of time.  I live on Sumas mountain.  My local loop is 5k it has 300m of climbing.  If I ride it with my regular mountain bike  heart rate goes to 170 or more.  Same ride with ebike is 160 and it saves my knees. 

I have a tandem as well that has a mid drive motor.  I use it because my disabled son does not have the strength to help get up hills.  Without it we would be much more limited as to where we can ride.  I can also ride that out my door with him, which there was no way we could before.

Aug. 19, 2021, 4:56 p.m.
Posts: 16707
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

I don't get unicycles either but I'm happy people like riding them. Similarly, I'm happy people like their ebikes but I think they are a bit silly. You have a motorized vehicle that you can help if you want, but you have to at least pretend to pedal to engage the motor. I recognize that your bike commute got easier but an electric motorcycle would have done the same thing and you could just twist the grip rather than pedalling. Finally, if you say exercise is your goal, lose the motor.

I think you need to grasp that everyone has their own story and their own reasons for making their choices.

I got an ebike because at the time, I was a single parent with two young children. I had limited child care options, so the time difference between the earliest I could start child care and the latest I could be at work was 1/2 hour. I also had almost no opportunities for exercise at any time, because whenever I was not working I was taking care of two kids. So, my choices were;

1) Drive to/from work 20 min each way.

2) Take my road bike which would be 40-45 min each way - late for work - every. single. day.

3) Take an ebike commuter which was 25-30 min each way.

Option 3 got me out of the car, out of traffic and bought me almost an hour of workout time that I would otherwise never have gotten. As stated before, I never used the throttle, I always pedalled hard enough to raise my HR, and I kept the motor power assist set low (usually 1-200 watts).

What would you have chose in similar circumstances?

During the time that I was using the ebike, I often had people start up conversations at traffic lights. Some of the other ebike riders had their own paths to that choice, like the guy who lived on North Shore and worked in New West ... the ebike enabled his commute without a car, while still providing a workout - something an emotorbike would not do.

Yes ... some people do pick an ebike out of sheer laziness. But it's not the exclusive territory of the fatasses.

Aug. 20, 2021, 8:46 a.m.
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Interesting story. Id say that was a pretty good option you came up with, and glad it worked out for you. I would guess that avid/experienced cyclist such as yourself are the exception to the rule for those riding ebikes on their daily commutes? Many of the riders I see are right on the edge of being able to control them. Given that some (all?) RadPower (just as an example) bikes are able to go 40km/h without pedaling, you get riders that are in over their heads quickly in terms of bike handling skills. Ive seen riders misjudging stopping distances and turns on ebikes, as they are going much faster than their skillset allows. Putting someone with limited bicycle experience on a 70lb+ ebike capable of speeds you dont normally see on a pedal bike is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Having these ebikes sharing lanes with pedal bikes also causes conflict (which I have also seen) due to the speed and mass differences along with generally no one following any of the rules of the road. Following the rules of the road seems to be a problem for all riders (and cars), so im not going to single out just ebikes on this one.


 Last edited by: shoreboy on Aug. 20, 2021, 8:51 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Aug. 20, 2021, 9:19 a.m.
Posts: 409
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

We’re kind of getting off track here from the original subject of type 1 ebikes on trails. I don’t think commuter ebikes are really much of an issue. If they get people out of cars and busses that’s a good thing. 

What does irk me are the excuse arguments to justify the use of ebikes off road. Oh it lets people with physical limitations ride. It allows unfit people to ride etc etc. Sure these things are true. But I haven’t seen any adds with old folks or infirm people riding ebikes. It’s quite simple, the main thrust of e mountain bikes is to climb faster so a rider can get more descents. That is the issue to discuss. Does this increased use cause a problem with trail wear and maintenance by mostly volunteer trail associations? I’ve read people say that was the same argument made by hikers against the use of mountain bikes back in the day. And those hikers were right. But from what I’ve seen the mountain bike groups stepped up big time with building and maintenance. 

Does the riding community desire growth of the sport through the inclusion of semi motorized bikes? Go the shore or Squamish or certain trails in Whistler and it’s pretty damn busy. Is that good or bad? My personal philosophy is anti growth for the sake of growth. I’ve heard it argued that if we want the sport to grow, as if it’s an incontrovertible argument that growth is good, we should embrace our ebike kin. I’m not convinced that infinite growth is good.

Aug. 20, 2021, 9:37 a.m.
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Posted by: andy-eunson

We’re kind of getting off track here from the original subject of type 1 ebikes on trails. I don’t think commuter ebikes are really much of an issue. If they get people out of cars and busses that’s a good thing. 

What does irk me are the excuse arguments to justify the use of ebikes off road. Oh it lets people with physical limitations ride. It allows unfit people to ride etc etc. Sure these things are true. But I haven’t seen any adds with old folks or infirm people riding ebikes. It’s quite simple, the main thrust of e mountain bikes is to climb faster so a rider can get more descents. That is the issue to discuss. Does this increased use cause a problem with trail wear and maintenance by mostly volunteer trail associations? I’ve read people say that was the same argument made by hikers against the use of mountain bikes back in the day. And those hikers were right. But from what I’ve seen the mountain bike groups stepped up big time with building and maintenance. 

Does the riding community desire growth of the sport through the inclusion of semi motorized bikes? Go the shore or Squamish or certain trails in Whistler and it’s pretty damn busy. Is that good or bad? My personal philosophy is anti growth for the sake of growth. I’ve heard it argued that if we want the sport to grow, as if it’s an incontrovertible argument that growth is good, we should embrace our ebike kin. I’m not convinced that infinite growth is good.

Agreed. I took this off on a tangent for sure. Apologies for that. Lets get back to the ebikes on trails discussion.

Aug. 20, 2021, 10:42 a.m.
Posts: 15
Joined: Nov. 15, 2017

I love the feeling of power . My  power . It's awesome that's why I love pedal bikes. Commute full time by pedal bike.  Should I get an Email bike for commuting? Sorry I actually enjoy the feeling of my power. Believe it or not commuting by pedal bike is not a chore it's a fun and rewarding challenge. 

Bikes with electric motors and batteries on hand built trails?  The bike purist in me hates them. My logical empathetic side says ignore them they are not causing any damage. 

Embrace electric motor mountain bikers with the same bro love I give to all riders. That's difficult. 

Do I shuttle sometimes yes. And one gentleman has an E bike . He is very talented . Does not appear to cause any greater damage to the trail. 

Then a light went off. Newbies destroy trails by trying to ride fast and then big fistfuls of rear brake ripping up the trail.   Bikes with motors to assist the climb make these difficult to access trails. Difficult just because of length of climb with a real pedal bike. Much easier for inexperience riders to attempt difficult trails. 

This is the future that I'm trying to accept. Everyone deserves to ride on trails.  

I will never grow fondly towards electric motor bikes unless they have no pedals and a 12000 watt motor . Then I'm game. 

I rode accross Second Narrows bridge. Why the fuck is everyone riding in the opposite direction of traffic?  Your idiots! I'm barreling down the bridge going back to North Van and I have to slow down almost to stop for these self serving lazy idiots.  

Oh and this law about me staying close to the curb. That is now occupied by cars! What curb it's now a parking lot. So I'm not getting doored and yes many close calls . So I have to ride right in the middle of the street. 

Lastly most E bike commuters are uneducated about how to commute by bike to say the least.  They are as thoughtless and dangerous as people in automobiles.  Eventually all Electric motor bikes will be licensed and regulated. Right after a few die. That's usually what it takes. 

Electric motor bikes on trails . It's here to stay . Get over it.

Aug. 20, 2021, 11:11 a.m.
Posts: 451
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

Regarding the second narrows, I don't think thats people being idiots, access is fucked due to the never ending Keith road interchange project so the one side is currently used for both directions which is terrible but not the users fault


 Last edited by: Kenny on Aug. 20, 2021, 11:11 a.m., edited 1 time in total.

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