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ebikes on the Shore

Aug. 17, 2021, 8:16 a.m.
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: shoreboy

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: shoreboy

So would you say that this quote directly from RadPower's website would fall into them being legal or illegal the way the laws are written?

I'd say the quote falls into the bikes being legal under the written legislation, but it would appear that BC Supreme Court precedent now exists that could make them illegal, and should now prompt a revision of that legislation.

Id say the quote falls into the bikes being illegal under the written legislation:

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a)the operator stops pedaling

If you are not pedaling, the motor should not be working. Seems fairly clear to me. The fact that so many of us are interpreting it differently means it needs revision.

You quoted that previously, but this time you've intentionally left out the comma after "operator stops pedaling", and then the conditional "(b)an accelerator controller is released, or, (c)a brake is applied."

The comma after (a) indicates a condition that (b) is also acceptable, as is (c).

Everyone can agree that as long as the regs are written this way, and the courts are making their own assumptions on the "spirit" of the law, it's going to be super messy from all angles. They need to nail this down with firm laws and enforcement.

I intentionally left it out because these are OR conditions, all three do not need to be met. If anyone of the a), b) or c) conditions occurs, the motor must turn off or disengage. The issue I have with twist throttle bikes is for condition a). The other two conditions are pretty obvious to me. If you turn off the throttle b), the motor stops.....if you put on the brakes c), the motor stops. If you stop pedaling, your throttle should no longer be functional. This is not the case with the RadPower bikes I have used as an example here.

I guess what I am really getting at is, if an ebike has a non-pedal assisted throttle, where does it cross the line into being an emotorbike?


 Last edited by: shoreboy on Aug. 17, 2021, 9:39 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Aug. 17, 2021, 9:33 a.m.
Posts: 16697
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

You need to check out the definition of the word 'or'.

Only one of the sub-sentences needs to be true for the complex sentence to be true.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/or

Definition of or

1—used as a function word to indicate an alternative

coffee or tea

sink or swim

, the equivalent or substitutive character of two words or phrases

lessen or abate

, or approximation or uncertainty

in five or six days

2archaic : EITHER

3archaic : WHETHER

4—used in logic as a sentential connective that forms a complex sentence which is true when at least one of its constituent sentences is true

.

.

.

Also, in Boolean logic ...

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Operators/Logical_OR

"The logical OR (||) operator (logical disjunction) for a set of operands is true if and only if one or more of its operands is true."


 Last edited by: KenN on Aug. 17, 2021, 9:33 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 17, 2021, 9:39 a.m.
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Is that not what I said? If any one or more of the three conditions is met, the motor must turn off.

Aug. 17, 2021, 11:42 a.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: July 25, 2017

For what it's worth, I wrote the following for IMBA Canada a little while back:

https://imbacanada.com/imba-canada-and-e-bikes/

It is a little dated now that the Feds have repealed their ebike leigslation - leading to the wild west chaos we're now seeing, but I think we all stand firm on the definition we used, and our reasons for doing so.  I know there has been some friction between IMBA and some trail groups, but this kind of policy for guiding e-bike use I think is a great tool to help figure out how to manage and regulate things.

Aug. 17, 2021, 2:41 p.m.
Posts: 16697
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: shoreboy

Is that not what I said? If any one or more of the three conditions is met, the motor must turn off.

Okay then ... by your logic, the rider needs to use both in order for the motor to propel the bike ... because power to the motor would also have to be stopped if (b) an accelerator controller is released. Thus, riding by pedalling only and not using the AC (accelerator controller) would be riding with the AC released, thus power the motor must be cut.

.

.

So logically, it should be interpreted with the implied words added in italics ...

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a) if motor-assisted pedalling, the operator stops pedaling OR IF

(b) if using AC, an accelerator controller is released OR IF

(c) in all cases, a brake is applied.

Further, take a step back and think about this ... your contention that the motor needs to stop in all cases when not pedalling. Then why have the AC? There is no logical, functional reason for the AC if the bike must be pedalled at all times. If the bike is being propelled by motor power using the AC, it would be just plain stupid to pedal - you'd just be freewheeling the pedals. Imagine, on a regular bike, flying down a hill and still spinning the pedals. Who does that? I contend that, given that the law is written to include and allow for ebikes to have a separate AC, it would be pointless to then override the intent of an AC by forcing the rider to pedal.

Now, you can argue the point that there shouldn't be any AC in the first place (European laws, for example do not allow it), but that's a different discussion. For now, the BC act allows for a separate AC.


 Last edited by: KenN on Aug. 17, 2021, 2:43 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 17, 2021, 2:41 p.m.
Posts: 16697
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: blangshaw

For what it's worth, I wrote the following for IMBA Canada a little while back:

https://imbacanada.com/imba-canada-and-e-bikes/

It is a little dated now that the Feds have repealed their ebike leigslation - leading to the wild west chaos we're now seeing, but I think we all stand firm on the definition we used, and our reasons for doing so.  I know there has been some friction between IMBA and some trail groups, but this kind of policy for guiding e-bike use I think is a great tool to help figure out how to manage and regulate things.

Some fair points, although I'd point out that this discussion has moved somewhat beyond ebikes on trails and into commuter territory!

Aug. 18, 2021, 6:46 a.m.
Posts: 1080
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: shoreboy

Is that not what I said? If any one or more of the three conditions is met, the motor must turn off.

Okay then ... by your logic, the rider needs to use both in order for the motor to propel the bike ... because power to the motor would also have to be stopped if (b) an accelerator controller is released. Thus, riding by pedalling only and not using the AC (accelerator controller) would be riding with the AC released, thus power the motor must be cut.

.

.

So logically, it should be interpreted with the implied words added in italics ...

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a) if motor-assisted pedalling, the operator stops pedaling OR IF

(b) if using AC, an accelerator controller is released OR IF

(c) in all cases, a brake is applied.

Further, take a step back and think about this ... your contention that the motor needs to stop in all cases when not pedalling. Then why have the AC? There is no logical, functional reason for the AC if the bike must be pedalled at all times. If the bike is being propelled by motor power using the AC, it would be just plain stupid to pedal - you'd just be freewheeling the pedals. Imagine, on a regular bike, flying down a hill and still spinning the pedals. Who does that? I contend that, given that the law is written to include and allow for ebikes to have a separate AC, it would be pointless to then override the intent of an AC by forcing the rider to pedal.

Now, you can argue the point that there shouldn't be any AC in the first place (European laws, for example do not allow it), but that's a different discussion. For now, the BC act allows for a separate AC.

Good points...

And you have just perfectly summarized why ebikes are a ridiculous invention. Who ever thought of inventing a weakly powered motorcycle that has a throttle built into some cranks you have to spin with your feet. 

Could you imagine a 500cc motorcycle that has pedals you spin? It would be stupid. Why do it with a weak electric motor?

Aug. 18, 2021, 9 a.m.
Posts: 329
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

No licence , no insurance, no worries.

Aug. 18, 2021, 9:15 a.m.
Posts: 16697
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: shoreboy

Is that not what I said? If any one or more of the three conditions is met, the motor must turn off.

Okay then ... by your logic, the rider needs to use both in order for the motor to propel the bike ... because power to the motor would also have to be stopped if (b) an accelerator controller is released. Thus, riding by pedalling only and not using the AC (accelerator controller) would be riding with the AC released, thus power the motor must be cut.

.

.

So logically, it should be interpreted with the implied words added in italics ...

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a) if motor-assisted pedalling, the operator stops pedaling OR IF

(b) if using AC, an accelerator controller is released OR IF

(c) in all cases, a brake is applied.

Further, take a step back and think about this ... your contention that the motor needs to stop in all cases when not pedalling. Then why have the AC? There is no logical, functional reason for the AC if the bike must be pedalled at all times. If the bike is being propelled by motor power using the AC, it would be just plain stupid to pedal - you'd just be freewheeling the pedals. Imagine, on a regular bike, flying down a hill and still spinning the pedals. Who does that? I contend that, given that the law is written to include and allow for ebikes to have a separate AC, it would be pointless to then override the intent of an AC by forcing the rider to pedal.

Now, you can argue the point that there shouldn't be any AC in the first place (European laws, for example do not allow it), but that's a different discussion. For now, the BC act allows for a separate AC.

Good points...

And you have just perfectly summarized why ebikes are a ridiculous invention. Who ever thought of inventing a weakly powered motorcycle that has a throttle built into some cranks you have to spin with your feet. 

Could you imagine a 500cc motorcycle that has pedals you spin? It would be stupid. Why do it with a weak electric motor?

Well that's a specious argument. Apples/oranges. A 500cc road motorcycle weighs 4-500 lbs, a 500W commuter ebike weighs about 60 lbs. The rider of an ebike can pedal with their legs providing 200 Watts and the electric motor assists by adding extra power. Makes a huge difference on a hilly ride. When I was using my ebike commuter, I could do my ride to work in about 30 minutes, as compared to 40-45 minutes on my road bike. Now, if the commute to work were pretty much flat all the way, the road bike would actually be faster.

Aug. 18, 2021, 11:44 a.m.
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

I agree with the statements KenN has made above. I guess my main contention is should ebikes have a throttle at all? That one will remain up for debate I guess.

The two videos below however, make RadPower bikes illegal without question. 'Hidden' menu that allows you to increase the assistance up to 40km/h (from the legal limit of 32km/h). This is a manufacturer supplied option, so it isnt like its an aftermarket hack or modification. It is part of their own software.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82B6Dn0cAg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve6_pvAvuRg&t=0s

It looks like he tries to trick the computer into giving up some extra speed by telling it it is running a smaller wheel size than it actually is. He isnt sure if it made a difference, but he said he could still feel assistance up to about 27mph (~43kph).


 Last edited by: shoreboy on Aug. 18, 2021, 11:48 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 18, 2021, 3:28 p.m.
Posts: 1080
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: RAHrider

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: shoreboy

Is that not what I said? If any one or more of the three conditions is met, the motor must turn off.

Okay then ... by your logic, the rider needs to use both in order for the motor to propel the bike ... because power to the motor would also have to be stopped if (b) an accelerator controller is released. Thus, riding by pedalling only and not using the AC (accelerator controller) would be riding with the AC released, thus power the motor must be cut.

.

.

So logically, it should be interpreted with the implied words added in italics ...

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a) if motor-assisted pedalling, the operator stops pedaling OR IF

(b) if using AC, an accelerator controller is released OR IF

(c) in all cases, a brake is applied.

Further, take a step back and think about this ... your contention that the motor needs to stop in all cases when not pedalling. Then why have the AC? There is no logical, functional reason for the AC if the bike must be pedalled at all times. If the bike is being propelled by motor power using the AC, it would be just plain stupid to pedal - you'd just be freewheeling the pedals. Imagine, on a regular bike, flying down a hill and still spinning the pedals. Who does that? I contend that, given that the law is written to include and allow for ebikes to have a separate AC, it would be pointless to then override the intent of an AC by forcing the rider to pedal.

Now, you can argue the point that there shouldn't be any AC in the first place (European laws, for example do not allow it), but that's a different discussion. For now, the BC act allows for a separate AC.

Good points...

And you have just perfectly summarized why ebikes are a ridiculous invention. Who ever thought of inventing a weakly powered motorcycle that has a throttle built into some cranks you have to spin with your feet. 

Could you imagine a 500cc motorcycle that has pedals you spin? It would be stupid. Why do it with a weak electric motor?

Well that's a specious argument. Apples/oranges. A 500cc road motorcycle weighs 4-500 lbs, a 500W commuter ebike weighs about 60 lbs. The rider of an ebike can pedal with their legs providing 200 Watts and the electric motor assists by adding extra power. Makes a huge difference on a hilly ride. When I was using my ebike commuter, I could do my ride to work in about 30 minutes, as compared to 40-45 minutes on my road bike. Now, if the commute to work were pretty much flat all the way, the road bike would actually be faster.

I don't get unicycles either but I'm happy people like riding them. Similarly, I'm happy people like their ebikes but I think they are a bit silly. You have a motorized vehicle that you can help if you want, but you have to at least pretend to pedal to engage the motor. I recognize that your bike commute got easier but an electric motorcycle would have done the same thing and you could just twist the grip rather than pedalling. Finally, if you say exercise is your goal, lose the motor.

Aug. 18, 2021, 4:15 p.m.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

I don't get unicycles either but I'm happy people like riding them. Similarly, I'm happy people like their ebikes but I think they are a bit silly. You have a motorized vehicle that you can help if you want, but you have to at least pretend to pedal to engage the motor. I recognize that your bike commute got easier but an electric motorcycle would have done the same thing and you could just twist the grip rather than pedalling. Finally, if you say exercise is your goal, lose the motor.

Dude, I generally like your posts but that's a pretty narrow minded and elitist point of view. Considering you're a physician, I sure as hell hope that you have a better bedside manner if you're ever consulting patients on physical activity when it comes to health and wellness.

Aug. 18, 2021, 6:09 p.m.
Posts: 1080
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: RAHrider

I don't get unicycles either but I'm happy people like riding them. Similarly, I'm happy people like their ebikes but I think they are a bit silly. You have a motorized vehicle that you can help if you want, but you have to at least pretend to pedal to engage the motor. I recognize that your bike commute got easier but an electric motorcycle would have done the same thing and you could just twist the grip rather than pedalling. Finally, if you say exercise is your goal, lose the motor.

Dude, I generally like your posts but that's a pretty narrow minded and elitist point of view. Considering you're a physician, I sure as hell hope that you have a better bedside manner if you're ever consulting patients on physical activity when it comes to health and wellness.

Sorry you don't like my personal (as a cyclist) non-medical profeasional opinion on the invention of a motor assisted bicycle. I think it's silly that the throttle is in the pedals. My personal opinion. If you want to know my medical opinion on ebikes, I can give you that as well but this is a cycling website. The fact that you bring into question my medical care of patients because I think the particular engineering of an ebike is silly, I find perplexing. I don't draw into question your ability to do your job because of your opinions on bicycles (and you have some strong ones). I don't mind you explaining why you think a throttle in the pedals is the greatest idea ever and I'll listen but please don't try and tell me I am a poor doctor because I don't agree.

Aug. 18, 2021, 7:33 p.m.
Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: RAHrider

Sorry you don't like my personal (as a cyclist) non-medical profeasional opinion on the invention of a motor assisted bicycle. I think it's silly that the throttle is in the pedals. My personal opinion. If you want to know my medical opinion on ebikes, I can give you that as well but this is a cycling website. The fact that you bring into question my medical care of patients because I think the particular engineering of an ebike is silly, I find perplexing. I don't draw into question your ability to do your job because of your opinions on bicycles (and you have some strong ones). I don't mind you explaining why you think a throttle in the pedals is the greatest idea ever and I'll listen but please don't try and tell me I am a poor doctor because I don't agree.

Good response, and thanks. 

I'll be honest and say I waffled about adding that second part, so I made sure to phrase it as an "if" question as I didn't want to directly accuse you. Sorry if it came off that way. Even though this is a mtb'ing website, the connection between riding and health/fitness is a fairly common concept that runs through many of the cycling specific threads here, including this one on ebikes in particular. You've made it clear that you're a physician, so I found it concerning that someone who has a responsibility to advocate for physical activity as means of improving health and wellness to their patients would make the statement of losing the motor if exercise is the goal. Maybe you wouldn't say that to a patient, but combining your comments above with the knowledge that you're a physician left me with a pretty serious (IMHO) question. Does that help give some better context to my thoughts?

Further, over the years I've worked with people who have gotten little to no advice from their physicians when it comes to physical activity. However, I know that aspect of the field is changing. Still, I would hope that any physician these days would recognize that the barriers to exercise are many and can be complex, so much so that an ebike could very well be an excellent choice for someone needing to improve their health and wellness. IMO a physicians primary concern should be the overall health and wellness of their patients and then any specific ailments the patient may see them for. For example, the idea of prescribing medication for say CVD and not providing a prescription for exercise and following up on the patient with it strikes me as irresponsible. I'm not saying this is you in any way and I recognize that this probably seems way outside my area of expertise, but there have been more than a few occasions where I've been surprised and disappointed with the advice given to a client in the gym from their physician. 

WRT a throttle in the pedals being the greatest idea ever I don't think that at all. I've made it clear in a number of these threads that I personally have no interest in ebikes. However, I do believe that ebikes have their place and that for some people they are a great option. On the same hand I would also argue that beyond a low to moderate fitness level (say 1-5 on a scale of 0-10), the notion that ebikes are better at improving fitness than regular bikes is fairly weak. Whether they are good or not comes down to the individual, their situation and their goals. 

Hopefully that clears things up, as yes I know I can be strongly opinionated depending on the topic. Feel free to rant at me if you want to, I'll still respect your input and opinions here.

Aug. 18, 2021, 11:01 p.m.
Posts: 1080
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: RAHrider

Sorry you don't like my personal (as a cyclist) non-medical profeasional opinion on the invention of a motor assisted bicycle. I think it's silly that the throttle is in the pedals. My personal opinion. If you want to know my medical opinion on ebikes, I can give you that as well but this is a cycling website. The fact that you bring into question my medical care of patients because I think the particular engineering of an ebike is silly, I find perplexing. I don't draw into question your ability to do your job because of your opinions on bicycles (and you have some strong ones). I don't mind you explaining why you think a throttle in the pedals is the greatest idea ever and I'll listen but please don't try and tell me I am a poor doctor because I don't agree.

Good response, and thanks. 

I'll be honest and say I waffled about adding that second part, so I made sure to phrase it as an "if" question as I didn't want to directly accuse you. Sorry if it came off that way. Even though this is a mtb'ing website, the connection between riding and health/fitness is a fairly common concept that runs through many of the cycling specific threads here, including this one on ebikes in particular. You've made it clear that you're a physician, so I found it concerning that someone who has a responsibility to advocate for physical activity as means of improving health and wellness to their patients would make the statement of losing the motor if exercise is the goal. Maybe you wouldn't say that to a patient, but combining your comments above with the knowledge that you're a physician left me with a pretty serious (IMHO) question. Does that help give some better context to my thoughts?

Further, over the years I've worked with people who have gotten little to no advice from their physicians when it comes to physical activity. However, I know that aspect of the field is changing. Still, I would hope that any physician these days would recognize that the barriers to exercise are many and can be complex, so much so that an ebike could very well be an excellent choice for someone needing to improve their health and wellness. IMO a physicians primary concern should be the overall health and wellness of their patients and then any specific ailments the patient may see them for. For example, the idea of prescribing medication for say CVD and not providing a prescription for exercise and following up on the patient with it strikes me as irresponsible. I'm not saying this is you in any way and I recognize that this probably seems way outside my area of expertise, but there have been more than a few occasions where I've been surprised and disappointed with the advice given to a client in the gym from their physician. 

WRT a throttle in the pedals being the greatest idea ever I don't think that at all. I've made it clear in a number of these threads that I personally have no interest in ebikes. However, I do believe that ebikes have their place and that for some people they are a great option. On the same hand I would also argue that beyond a low to moderate fitness level (say 1-5 on a scale of 0-10), the notion that ebikes are better at improving fitness than regular bikes is fairly weak. Whether they are good or not comes down to the individual, their situation and their goals. 

Hopefully that clears things up, as yes I know I can be strongly opinionated depending on the topic. Feel free to rant at me if you want to, I'll still respect your input and opinions here.

You seem to have a pretty low opinion of the care provided to patients by physicians in general. I really didn't want to come on here and defend my personal practice but I will say that what you describe in no way resembles my own practice. Every person I treat for a heart attack I personally follow up, prescribe exercise, diet and smoking cessation (if needed) in addition to drugs that aid cardiac healing and prevent future heart attacks. My office waiting room has healthy cookbooks for patients to peruse. I even have a library that patients can borrow books from on meditation, stress reduction and better ways to deal with stress and anxiety (often the reason they smoke).

Have I found ebikes particularly effective for cardiac rehabilitation after a myocardial infarction (a heart attack), not really. Do some of my patients enjoy riding them - absolutely! Do I consider what they do on their ebike exercise - not usually. Most of what they do on an ebike I classify as movement, which can be good for joints, mobility and mental health but really isn't any more exercise than a trip to Costco. 

Again, I'm happy people like riding e bikes. I have loved bikes for decades. I ride one every day (just about). For me attaching a motor to a bike only takes away from my enjoyment. Cutting my commute by 15 minutes only means 15 less minutes riding my bike. I think the idea of a motorized vehicle with the throttle in the pedals is kind of a silly invention, but if it does it for some, good on them. I'm certainly not going to sit around and praise ebikes for getting my patients out doing the bare minimum activity. After they tell me about their great bike ride, I ask them how hard they were breathing and then tell them that it's great they are getting outside and breathing fresh air but then remind them that they need to dedicate some time to getting their heart rate up and working up a sweat. 

If people would like to rant about their shitty health care, go ahead. I'll read the whole thing and learn from your experiences. It's hard to know where our system let's people down without listening to their bad experiences.

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