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ebikes on the Shore

Nov. 27, 2019, 6:44 a.m.
Posts: 18
Joined: Dec. 16, 2018

Sounds to good to be true, but here it is ...

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/study-suggests-e-bikes-provide-a-similar-workout-to-regular-bikes.html

Nov. 27, 2019, 8:35 a.m.
Posts: 1280
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: E-wok

Sounds to good to be true, but here it is ...

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/study-suggests-e-bikes-provide-a-similar-workout-to-regular-bikes.html

I'm sorry riding a bicycle is too uncomfortable for you. I'm glad you have a motorbike so you can keep up to your friends.

Nov. 27, 2019, 2:55 p.m.
Posts: 1706
Joined: May 23, 2006

Pinkbike is a whore for industry.

Nov. 27, 2019, 4:13 p.m.
Posts: 36
Joined: May 11, 2017

That study is so flawed I don't even know where to begin...

The riders achieved the same intensity but on average the duration was 12 minutes shorter. So they did not get the same workout at all....

They should have compared the same duration of effort. Both 2 hour rides, similar wattage; how much further do you need to go to achieve the same amount of exercise...

Nov. 27, 2019, 4:48 p.m.
Posts: 187
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

To be fair the study itself notes that it is a pilot study right in the title and they do talk about the limitations of the study.  From a science perspective it serves as a good jumping off point for more thorough examination. The disappointment is how some people are parading this around as gospel truth the back up their claims of ebikes being as good or better than pedal bikes and then refusing to consider critical view points that use sound theory to address the faults in this particular study.

Nov. 27, 2019, 6 p.m.
Posts: 1511
Joined: July 11, 2014

Posted by: cerealkilla_

Not the shore, but just another indication of where this is leading: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/us-forest-service-sued-over-ebikes-in-tahoe-national-forest.html 

But.... but.. the ebike advocates claimed this would never happen! I'm sure we will see some ebike specific advocacy groups stepping up (industry supported) to address this right?

Nov. 27, 2019, 8:47 p.m.
Posts: 728
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

Posted by: MaxRockatansky

That study is so flawed I don't even know where to begin...

The riders achieved the same intensity but on average the duration was 12 minutes shorter. So they did not get the same workout at all....

They should have compared the same duration of effort. Both 2 hour rides, similar wattage; how much further do you need to go to achieve the same amount of exercise...

That's only half of the problem here. The main thing is that these are two entirely different forms of technology, and they will be used in very different ways.

To suggest they provide similar workouts means under controlled circumstances they CAN provide similar workouts. However, in practice, things may be entirely different.

Personally, I don't think it matters. I don't really care how hard someone is working. The whole "cheater" argument is a dead horse, and quite honestly it never held value in meaningful discussions IMHO. There are far more important things to consider, such as recent lawsuits by hikers and horseback riders for permitting Ebike access to trail networks.

However, if we must go down this road I ask this.....will the expanded sale of ebikes for off-road use (in their current formats) lead to riders working harder or less hard on their rides? 

1) For certain, there will be some who will now get a better workout (than none at all) because they will get out and ride when injuries or limits may otherwise keep them home.  Awesome. This is great.

2) There will also be some that will legitimately push ebikes in a manner that they get as good (and sometimes even better) of a workout than on a MTB.  Okay.  

3) Then there are those that will stop pedaling very hard at all, because now they have an engine doing the work for them. Okay.  

Overall, I would suggest that the main marketing thrust of ebikes is focused at people that will likely end up in category #3, and in sum this will not in any way enhance the average (across all riders) fitness of the ridership. It will just give an easy way out for those that don't really like pedaling. 

Fine, who cares? I don't. Some will get fitter and some will get fatter.

It's not a matter of whether not not an ebike gives a comparable workout.....it's how they are used by different people.  And as goes for fitness so will go for trail access and trail impacts. If ebikes are brought forward responsibly with proactive engagement by those that promote them, and with a clear effort to contribute to harmonious trail management systems, all should be fine. However, if they are just pushed pushed pushed, with no consideration or efforts to understand potential impacts on existing trail traffic patterns, we will have more needless messes like we are seeing in Tahoe.

Nov. 27, 2019, 11:21 p.m.
Posts: 33195
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Sounds exactly like the MTB complaints of 15 to 20 years ago.

Nov. 28, 2019, 8:54 a.m.
Posts: 1280
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: cerealkilla_

3) Then there are those that will stop pedaling very hard at all, because now they have an engine doing the work for them. Okay.

Overall, I would suggest that the main marketing thrust of ebikes is focused at people that will likely end up in category #3, and in sum this will not in any way enhance the average (across all riders) fitness of the ridership. It will just give an easy way out for those that don't really like pedaling.

Fine, who cares? I don't. Some will get fitter and some will get fatter.

Yes cat 3 100%- humans are lazy overall.

This data pinkbike has posted couldn't be any further from the truth in my experience. As I have posted before I have rode my bike up NQ I don't know how many times. I have rode an ebike up it when I took a demo out and it was effortless in comparison.

These bikes have an engine on them we get it, why can't the people pushing them try to pretend it's a normal bike? It's not.... Of course it's going to be easier that's the whole idea. I guess they are paying pinkbike and all the shills to say otherwise because they aren't selling as they hoped? That's what I have heard from the shop peeps. The commuters sell like crazy the MTB versions not so much. If it was the same workout then that Kona trail builder bike with the chainsaw and saddle bags must be a bitch to ride with 50 pounds of gear on it? No it's not, it's motorized that's the whole idea.

You ride one, great, enjoy the trails, glad you are out there. You have your reasons for riding one, fine but going door to door trying to sell it to us like a jehovas witness is getting tired.


 Last edited by: Brocklanders on Nov. 28, 2019, 8:55 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Nov. 28, 2019, 9:03 a.m.
Posts: 220
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

For me it’s the entire we need ebikes for the sport to grow as if that is a good thing. It’s the Idiocracy of near sightedness. It’s not a good thing. Let’s not kid ourselves. Ebikes are targeted toward the riders that put a premium on downhill “runs” and want to do more of that in a given time period.

Nov. 28, 2019, 12:03 p.m.
Posts: 4850
Joined: Nov. 25, 2002

Posted by: Brocklander

This data pinkbike has posted couldn't be any further from the truth in my experience. As I have posted before I have rode my bike up NQ I don't know how many times. I have rode an ebike up it when I took a demo out and it was effortless in comparison.

for sure. i can't foresee even approaching the kind of anaerobic exertion you get on tech climbs with an ebike. not that it's an argument for or against, it just seems kinda spurious. perhaps the exertion equivalency is true for more recreational riders that don't embrace entering the pain cave.

Nov. 28, 2019, 1:26 p.m.
Posts: 1280
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: xy9ine

Posted by: Brocklander

This data pinkbike has posted couldn't be any further from the truth in my experience. As I have posted before I have rode my bike up NQ I don't know how many times. I have rode an ebike up it when I took a demo out and it was effortless in comparison.

for sure. i can't foresee even approaching the kind of anaerobic exertion you get on tech climbs with an ebike. not that it's an argument for or against, it just seems kinda spurious. perhaps the exertion equivalency is true for more recreational riders that don't embrace entering the pain cave.

Exactly. If it's not easier to ride a motorized MTB what is the point? Feels like the bike Industry is grabbing at straws. It's easier but just as hard ? Negative ghost rider, no way. More distance travelled for same amount of time in saddle yes, but exertion pushing watts way less.

Nov. 29, 2019, 8:44 a.m.
Posts: 468
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: xy9ine

Posted by: Brocklander

This data pinkbike has posted couldn't be any further from the truth in my experience. As I have posted before I have rode my bike up NQ I don't know how many times. I have rode an ebike up it when I took a demo out and it was effortless in comparison.

for sure. i can't foresee even approaching the kind of anaerobic exertion you get on tech climbs with an ebike. not that it's an argument for or against, it just seems kinda spurious. perhaps the exertion equivalency is true for more recreational riders that don't embrace entering the pain cave.

My friends on them say the ebike sort of levels your exertion If you map It out over an entire ride. They don' t work as hard on the climbs but the bike Is heavier all the time and provides a different sort of workout. They tell me the ebike makes technical climbing as fun as flat or descending technical riding - now the climb is just another trail to ride instead of something difficult to endure. People who like to suffer can still suffer as much as they want. I'm not really for or against but I find these comments Interesting.

Nov. 29, 2019, 12:10 p.m.
Posts: 1706
Joined: May 23, 2006

But.... but.. the ebike advocates .......ebike specific advocacy groups ...... (industry supported)

Dec. 6, 2019, 8:11 a.m.
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 6, 2019

New member on NSMB, please forgive me if I'm missing the point on a few things that have already been discussed. I am an e-bike rider and I am a downhill rider. Yes e-bikes are big in Europe and will probably get bigger here in North America. 

I'm just curious that given the choice, would you rather see more hikers, horseback riders or e bike riders on the shore?

More than anything, there is proper trail etiquette and I am always conscious of letting someone clear a pitch before asking if I can pass. An a*hole is an A*hole, whether it's on a e-bike or an XC strava kind of guy. Everybody is getting older and you reach a point where you realize that if it makes you more happy to use an e-bike to travel further and get more fun, it becomes a no-brainer. After purchasing my used e-bike, I ended up selling my Trek Slash that gathered dust for 2 months before I made the move. Now my e-bike is my training bike because it is 52 pounds and when I get on my DH, it feels like nothing!

A few very important points about e-bikes that I have discovered:

1-e-bikes can be the great equalizer in terms of climbing in cases where the climb is not technical

2-e-bikes will quickly point out your biggest flaws, i.e. if you are a bad technical climber, the e-bike can be quite a handful given the delay in power to the rear wheel in key situations. Same goes for pointing it downhill, it is 52 pounds and requires more abilities if you ride technical descents.

3-e-biking is a different bicycle sport than xc, enduro or DH as your effort is more constant as opposed to peaking when climbing and low on descent. most of the time I pedal my heart out on the e-bike because that is what all of us have been doing on group rides for ever and that means more opportunity for descents in a short amount of time.

4-e-bikes could create bigger problems if someone is not ready for the backcountry. That being said any numpty could also get in trouble in the backcountry even hiking, normally aspirated biking or horseback riding.

5- the smiles per miles ratio is off the charts as railing a berm going uphill and feeling like you are going downhill speeds when you are on the flats is very, very fun (if you have really good twisty trails)

I think it is important to have varied views on this subject, as it is an emerging sport and we should be sure that it doesn't create more problems than it brings opportunities for more people.

I am happy that some people are willing to progress their thinking (56 pages on this thread!) and some people will try an e-bike then they can really appreciate that it's not for everyone but the ones who do have them love them!

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