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ebikes on the Shore

July 24, 2019, 4:01 p.m.
Posts: 780
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if these early ebikes were less powerful and distinctly pedelecs with an emphasis on 'taking the edge off'. Instead we have these mini mopeds that basically eliminate climbing and sit uncomfortably close to e-MX despite the pedalling.

July 24, 2019, 8:51 p.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: craw

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if these early ebikes were less powerful and distinctly pedelecs with an emphasis on 'taking the edge off'. Instead we have these mini mopeds that basically eliminate climbing and sit uncomfortably close to e-MX despite the pedalling.

You can see in this vid from the 4-5 min mark that is not the case. 

https://youtu.be/ED0m3CbRLcI

July 24, 2019, 11 p.m.
Posts: 780
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: craw

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if these early ebikes were less powerful and distinctly pedelecs with an emphasis on 'taking the edge off'. Instead we have these mini mopeds that basically eliminate climbing and sit uncomfortably close to e-MX despite the pedalling.

You can see in this vid from the 4-5 min mark that is not the case. 

Seems to me that video made my point. I think they make climbing too easy but maybe I'm weird in wanting to go out there and better myself systematically. My point was that if these bikes gave less assist, didn't make it quite so easy, didn't make the slippery slope to full on e-mx quite so clear, that people wouldn't be having such a hard time with them.

July 25, 2019, 12:19 a.m.
Posts: 60
Joined: Dec. 1, 2008

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: craw

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if these early ebikes were less powerful and distinctly pedelecs with an emphasis on 'taking the edge off'. Instead we have these mini mopeds that basically eliminate climbing and sit uncomfortably close to e-MX despite the pedalling.

You can see in this vid from the 4-5 min mark that is not the case. 

I have ridden ebikes (touring/commuting variants) and i tend to agree with craw. In the highest assist setting, i went up the steepest, hardest road climbs in the area at max speed (25km/H) while putting in the same effort it takes to bring a normal bike to that speed on flat ground. Max assist more than quadruples your power (up to the limit of the motor). Drains the battery really fast, but batteries are getting better and e-mtbs come with far bigger batteries than touring bikes.

July 25, 2019, 6:48 a.m.
Posts: 1992
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: Ddean

... This is about the big picture and those of you who are arguing from your own soapbox because you dont see an end to your ability to climb whatever you want are all conflicted too. This is about what the right decision is, not what about what will benefit any one specific person or even segment of "riders"...

I won't speak for anyone else, but I am very aware that my time climbing "whatever I want" (which I already can't do obviously) is limited.  I've faced this possibility before due to severe injury.  I KNOW that someday I won't be able to mountain bike anymore.  

Like you say, this is "about the big picture".  Doesn't effect my concerns re trail experience and impact to access.  Your understanding of the issue will always be limited if you continue to make assumptions about those of us who have concerns about the impact that the motorization of our sport could have. 

If we focus on issues, and instead of judging scorn on the "other guy" ("lazy" mopeders, "elitist" mountain bikers, etc.) we attempt to understand their viewpoint, we might actually be able to get somewhere.

July 25, 2019, 8:08 a.m.
Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: Timer

Posted by: Brocklanders

Posted by: craw

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if these early ebikes were less powerful and distinctly pedelecs with an emphasis on 'taking the edge off'. Instead we have these mini mopeds that basically eliminate climbing and sit uncomfortably close to e-MX despite the pedalling.

You can see in this vid from the 4-5 min mark that is not the case.

I have ridden ebikes (touring/commuting variants) and i tend to agree with craw. In the highest assist setting, i went up the steepest, hardest road climbs in the area at max speed (25km/H) while putting in the same effort it takes to bring a normal bike to that speed on flat ground. Max assist more than quadruples your power (up to the limit of the motor). Drains the battery really fast, but batteries are getting better and e-mtbs come with far bigger batteries than touring bikes.

Even the steepest road climbs don’t really compare to steep single track. Pretty much impossible to climb anywhere near top speed, not even half speed.


 Last edited by: FLATCH on July 25, 2019, 8:12 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
July 25, 2019, 8:36 a.m.
Posts: 891
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: Ddean

... This is about the big picture and those of you who are arguing from your own soapbox because you dont see an end to your ability to climb whatever you want are all conflicted too. This is about what the right decision is, not what about what will benefit any one specific person or even segment of "riders"...

I won't speak for anyone else, but I am very aware that my time climbing "whatever I want" (which I already can't do obviously) is limited.  I've faced this possibility before due to severe injury.  I KNOW that someday I won't be able to mountain bike anymore.  

Like you say, this is "about the big picture".  Doesn't effect my concerns re trail experience and impact to access.  Your understanding of the issue will always be limited if you continue to make assumptions about those of us who have concerns about the impact that the motorization of our sport could have. 

If we focus on issues, and instead of judging scorn on the "other guy" ("lazy" mopeders, "elitist" mountain bikers, etc.) we attempt to understand their viewpoint, we might actually be able to get somewhere.

Sounds like we are on the same page in that our views are not impacted by our own ability to climb to the areas that we want and that the right decision (whatever that may be) is one that is based upon the big picture. We may differ on what the "right decision" appears to be (not sure, but maybe we do), but both of us are working off of our own assumptions right now as no one really knows...... 

My current expectation is that not much will change with ebikes: Number of riders will likely stay similar. Where they ride will likely stay similar. I dont believe that we are likely to have conflicts on the trails as a result of ebikes although I myself have not been pleased to learn that the bike Im pulling over for on GSM every now and then is an ebike (I will stop doing that if I know its an ebike as its disruptive to my ride, and if you're on an ebike on a single track climbing trail...well, that's your decision to be there, you can turn down your boost and enjoy the view as you pedal). I think that those on ebikes are going to put more miles on the trails than those without, but hey, the popular trails are armored to hell already!

Since I dont envision bad stuff happening as a result of ebikes, I feel that people should ride what they want.My opinion will change if my assumption (that nothing will change) is flawed.

July 25, 2019, 10:08 p.m.
Posts: 130
Joined: March 1, 2017

Posted by: Ddean

NSMBA will have to wrap its head around the fact that its average riders use of the trails may increase A LOT (due to more laps per person) but that's its puzzle to figure out.

Why is it up to under-resourced trail organisations to figure out the puzzle? People doing the extra riding should get off their bikes (E or otherwise) and help. It's not someone else's problem. If we don't collectively look after the trails, they all be fucked. That's my issue with E bikes.

July 26, 2019, 12:33 a.m.
Posts: 60
Joined: Dec. 1, 2008

Posted by: FLATCH

Even the steepest road climbs don’t really compare to steep single track. Pretty much impossible to climb anywhere near top speed, not even half speed.

I know, but my point is that you only need to push ~80 watts to use the full 250w of the motor. The resulting 330w is more than enough sustained power power to basically eliminate climbing as we know it.

July 26, 2019, 6:13 a.m.
Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Posted by: Ddean

NSMBA will have to wrap its head around the fact that its average riders use of the trails may increase A LOT (due to more laps per person) but that's its puzzle to figure out.

Why is it up to under-resourced trail organisations to figure out the puzzle? People doing the extra riding should get off their bikes (E or otherwise) and help. It's not someone else's problem. If we don't collectively look after the trails, they all be fucked. That's my issue with E bikes.

You’re making an assumption that they don’t. Some e-bikers already belong to trail orgs. I really don’t get why so many think that because you ride an e-bike that you must be a fat,lazy,irresponsible dushbag. The stance some are taking is only going to discourage riders from having anything to do with volunteering their time.


 Last edited by: FLATCH on July 26, 2019, 6:33 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Because I went a little far,(no coffee yet, woke a little cranky)
July 26, 2019, 6:18 a.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/turbo-e-bikes-its-you-only-faster/c/ebikes

Now 45k an hour! So obviously specialized could care less about trying to keep the peace. What a surprise.


 Last edited by: Brocklanders on July 26, 2019, 6:22 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
July 26, 2019, 6:27 a.m.
Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: Brocklanders

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/turbo-e-bikes-its-you-only-faster/c/ebikes

Now 45k an hour! So obviously specialized could care less bout trying to keep the peace. What a surprise.

Can’t find where you get 45k from,where did you read that. Either way mtb’s are still regulated. Besides I don’t get how you think you could go that speed up a trail. Just not possible.


 Last edited by: FLATCH on July 26, 2019, 6:30 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
July 26, 2019, 6:39 a.m.
Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: Brocklanders

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/turbo-e-bikes-its-you-only-faster/c/ebikes

Now 45k an hour! So obviously specialized could care less bout trying to keep the peace. What a surprise.

Can’t find where you get 45k from,where did you read that. Either way mtb’s are still regulated. Besides I don’t get how you think you could go that speed up a trail. Just not possible.

Found it. Not really surprised for a road bike. But if you want to talk about road bikes I think there is a forum for that. You should stick with apples to apples.

July 26, 2019, 8 a.m.
Posts: 891
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

It’s up to the people who maintain the trails to adapt to changes, or not.

Changes are happening all the time - ebikes are just one potential pressure, but the associations have had to adapt to increased ridership even before ebikes. 

And everyone should be pitching in the associations with maintenance. I guess the alternative is fees increase, but since membership is “voluntary” that’s tougher to play out.

July 26, 2019, 8:16 a.m.
Posts: 1992
Joined: April 25, 2003

Exactly. 

One way of adapting is to discourage motorized use on the trails that they manage. 

For myself, my membership dues will depend on if this is the adaption they choose or not.

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