ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: syncro

At the end of the day as long as people are using good trail etiquette it doesn't really matter what their rationale is for using the trails to anyone but themselves.

Discussing the biggest impact on the bicycle industry is a totally reasonable thing to do on a bicycle forum....including why people are abandoning bicycles in favour of mopeds. If that discussion doesn't interest you don't participate.

Posted by: RAHrider

Why do they need to ride 60miles in a day? Does 60miles on an e(asy)bike give them twice the pleasure of 30miles on a bike? 

As for this thread (and forum) shunning e(asy)bikers, what would you expect? Could you imagine going to motorcycle forum and posting all about your bicycle adventures and expecting them to be super supportive of your bicycle touring or mtb rides? The bicycle industry seems to think that cyclists were unsatisfied with their sport and were just waiting for motors to be added to their bike - this is not the case. What they probably are correct about is that a bunch of people who are not cyclists probably were not getting into bicycles as it was too hard. Motors does solve that problem.

Cycling has a number of steps of skill & fitness that unlock capability for the rider. Like how to shift and how to select pleasant cycling routes. Climbs are much more enjoyable if you get past the initial fitness hurdles of being a sedentary person. Mopeds provide the cheat code for a lot of those steps. No need to learn to how and when to shift if you can just jam the motor into Turbo mode and then back down to Eco on the flats. No need to select fun ways uphill that are efficient at human power levels when you can just Turbo up a DH trail or the steepest hill in town. 

There really isn't an area of modern human life where the majority of society doesn't choose the path of least effort/most convenience. Imagine if you told someone they actually had to get off the sofa and walk 4' to the TV to change the channel or adjust the volume....then walk all the way back. They'd look at you like you were suggesting something Shakleton-esque. 

The problem of course is taking the easy route every time leads to a fragile life that can't handle being challenged. Look around at what the average human looks like these days and what their health/physical/mental capabilities are. It's pretty sad. 

Mountain biking used to be an activity where that process of challenging oneself was central to the sport. Now it's an annoying aspect that we are trying to buy our way out of with motors and batteries. We are watching MTBing turn into golf complete with electric golf carts.

Posted by: RAHrider

Why do they need to ride 60miles in a day? Does 60miles on an e(asy)bike give them twice the pleasure of 30miles on a bike? The e(asy)bike cannot even do the 60 miles, they need a battery brought to them somewhere on the loop. The idea that everyone needs to achieve achieve achieve is crazy. Just go ride your bike. If you can't ride 60 miles, don't sweat it. Ride what you can and enjoy it. The idea that we need to develop technology so that everyone can achieve some goal of vert or runs or epic km's is stupid. It is also what is messing up our society as no one is happy with what they have and yet they aren't really happy when they have more either. I watch those guys sprint up the climb with the help of their motor and I think - they just ruined one of the best parts of riding. The meditative process of a nice long climb is not something I need to fastforward at 2xspeed so I can get to the "good part." If you like riding an e(asy)bike, great. But I loath the idea that everyone should want to augment their bike with motors so they can be happier with what it helps them achieve.

As for this thread (and forum) shunning e(asy)bikers, what would you expect? Could you imagine going to motorcycle forum and posting all about your bicycle adventures and expecting them to be super supportive of your bicycle touring or mtb rides? The bicycle industry seems to think that cyclists were unsatisfied with their sport and were just waiting for motors to be added to their bike - this is not the case. What they probably are correct about is that a bunch of people who are not cyclists probably were not getting into bicycles as it was too hard. Motors does solve that problem.

We’re talking about what toys we play with in the woods, “need” has nothing to do with it.

People LIKE riding eMTB’s. It’s just that simple really. The enjoyment isn’t the same as regular bikes, just like it’s not the same as hiking, trials biking, enduro moto, auto cross…I really don’t see the need to be so judgmental of the people who like them (many of whom also enjoy regular bikes) or focus on what is “missing” - it’s just different!

Like you said “Ride what you can and enjoy it!”

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: syncro

At the end of the day as long as people are using good trail etiquette it doesn't really matter what their rationale is for using the trails to anyone but themselves.

Discussing the biggest impact on the bicycle industry is a totally reasonable thing to do on a bicycle forum....including why people are abandoning bicycles in favour of mopeds. If that discussion doesn't interest you don't participate.

I agree that it's totally reasonable to discuss ebikes, but it's not reasonable to be judgemental and malign people for using them by doing things like calling them lazy or calling ebikes mopeds. Pretty much all the "reasons" being put out there in support of not using ebikes are the same mostly hollow ones that have been used from day one. There are more reasons to engage with ebikers in a positive manner than the negative ones on display here, especially if people are new to mtb'ing altogether.

Also, to be blunt, don't tell me what to participate or not in. That's pretty priggish behaviour coming from someone who's supposed to be a moderator.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: RAHrider

Why do they need to ride 60miles in a day? Does 60miles on an e(asy)bike give them twice the pleasure of 30miles on a bike? 

As for this thread (and forum) shunning e(asy)bikers, what would you expect? Could you imagine going to motorcycle forum and posting all about your bicycle adventures and expecting them to be super supportive of your bicycle touring or mtb rides? The bicycle industry seems to think that cyclists were unsatisfied with their sport and were just waiting for motors to be added to their bike - this is not the case. What they probably are correct about is that a bunch of people who are not cyclists probably were not getting into bicycles as it was too hard. Motors does solve that problem.

Cycling has a number of steps of skill & fitness that unlock capability for the rider. Like how to shift and how to select pleasant cycling routes. Climbs are much more enjoyable if you get past the initial fitness hurdles of being a sedentary person. Mopeds provide the cheat code for a lot of those steps. No need to learn to how and when to shift if you can just jam the motor into Turbo mode and then back down to Eco on the flats. No need to select fun ways uphill that are efficient at human power levels when you can just Turbo up a DH trail or the steepest hill in town. 

There really isn't an area of modern human life where the majority of society doesn't choose the path of least effort/most convenience. Imagine if you told someone they actually had to get off the sofa and walk 4' to the TV to change the channel or adjust the volume....then walk all the way back. They'd look at you like you were suggesting something Shakleton-esque. 

The problem of course is taking the easy route every time leads to a fragile life that can't handle being challenged. Look around at what the average human looks like these days and what their health/physical/mental capabilities are. It's pretty sad. 

Mountain biking used to be an activity where that process of challenging oneself was central to the sport. Now it's an annoying aspect that we are trying to buy our way out of with motors and batteries. We are watching MTBing turn into golf complete with electric golf carts.

if every ebiker just wants to use turbo all the time, why are sl ebikes getting so popular?

Posted by: syncro

Also, to be blunt, don't tell me what to participate or not in. That's pretty priggish behaviour coming from someone who's supposed to be a moderator.

That's' exactly what your post I quoted was suggesting...by telling us what we could discuss and what we should not. So spare me the pot calling the kettle black shtick. If we want to discuss why people are motivated to chose a particular course of action that has a major impact on riding bicycles it's completely reasonable to do so. If you don't find that of interest you don't need to engage.

Posted by: Sethimus

if every ebiker just wants to use turbo all the time, why are sl ebikes getting so popular?

I didn't say every e-biker wants to use turbo all the time. That said I have dealt with a fair % of e-bikers who simply don't use the derailleur on their bikes and use the power selector instead. Some who were actually surprised there was another speed modulation option.

Posted by: Vikb

I have dealt with a fair % of e-bikers who simply don't use the derailleur on their bikes and use the power selector instead. Some who were actually surprised there was another speed modulation option.

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

you generalizing quite a bit, while relying only on your own limited experience…

Posted by: Vikb

Mountain biking used to be an activity where that process of challenging oneself was central to the sport. Now it's an annoying aspect that we are trying to buy our way out of with motors and batteries. We are watching MTBing turn into golf complete with electric golf carts.

Mountain biking is still that sport if you don’t use a motor.  

Now it’s e mountain biking as well, which may be seen by some as being soft.  If being associated with something that’s perceived as being soft is a problem for you than you have some growing up to do. Personally, I don’t give a shit and some of the hardest, most experienced, and fastest riders I know enjoy the riding ebikes so it’s not inherently easy or soft vs mountain biking.

I don’t know about you guys, but I ride the same as always and eMTB’s haven’t affected that one bit. (Aside for the additional trail work that’s getting done by some of my favorite builders that is).

Posted by: heckler

Posted by: Vikb

I have dealt with a fair % of e-bikers who simply don't use the derailleur on their bikes and use the power selector instead. Some who were actually surprised there was another speed modulation option.

I’ve heard this from a certified (usually on a pedal bike) instructor, who only realized her new to mtb students on their E-bikes did not use the shifter to climb a change in grade.  Only the power up button.  

She only realized this once she borrowed a powered bike cuz hers was down at Suspensionwerx. 

The lesson quickly changed to shifting.

And everyone I know uses them to ride harder, up gnarlier stuff, and bigger loops. 

Only time I rode one I was destroyed at the end - cardio like a normal ride and my upper body was more worked from moving a heavy bike around for a few hours. 

So not everyone is using them to make things easy, particularly experienced riders.

Posted by: tashi

Mountain biking is still that sport if you don’t use a motor.  

I've been riding bicycles since I was a kid and riding mountain bikes since they were a thing in Canada in the 80's. I've got a vested interest in what happens in the bicycle world and adding motors to bicycles has been the biggest change in that community that I have seen and I think it's a negative change hence my opinion on the subject. Mountain biking is only that sport if you don't use a motor. You can ride a broped on the same trails, but it's not the same activity. The whole strategy of aligning mopeds with mountain bikes was only to get motors on non-motorized trails. 

I can't think of one recreational activity that went from strictly human powered to motorized that resulted in a more healthy participating population or less environmental impacts. I don't think that change to bicycling will be any different.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: syncro

Also, to be blunt, don't tell me what to participate or not in. That's pretty priggish behaviour coming from someone who's supposed to be a moderator.

That's' exactly what your post I quoted was suggesting...by telling us what we could discuss and what we should not. So spare me the pot calling the kettle black shtick. If we want to discuss why people are motivated to chose a particular course of action that has a major impact on riding bicycles it's completely reasonable to do so. If you don't find that of interest you don't need to engage.

Yeah no, I didn't tell you not to participate. What I did was call out the negative or maligning comments and say that should stop. There have have been a number of interesting and valid comments, but the general attitude is that ebikes and the people that ride them suck. If the shoe was on the other foot, as a moderator you probably wouldn't be letting that happen. If you want to "discuss" people's motivation for getting an ebike then maybe talk to them instead of making what has been some wild speculations at times.

Posted by: Vikb

No need to select fun ways uphill that are efficient at human power levels when you can just Turbo up a DH trail or the steepest hill in town. 

Having personally “E-turbo’ed” up Old Buck once to get two Pangor laps in,  what you suggest as easy for a couch potato new to pedalling is in fact quite a cardio workout.  It was not easy for me, a rider of 30+ years with moderate fitness. 

Another E-experience in the Austrian alps had my wife suffering an severe asthma attack (only the second one in her life, not a chronic problem) after turboing up the steepest hiking trail we ran into (it was steep, like you are not going to be able  start again if you stop). 

But yeah, we chose the steep path over the gravel road that paralleled it.