DNV Council Meeting March 1st 7:00

Quoting Ernie Crist [HTML_REMOVED][email protected][HTML_REMOVED]:

[HTML_REMOVED] A message from Ernie Crist;
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[HTML_REMOVED] Subject: FW: mountain bikers
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[HTML_REMOVED] This is one typical complaint.There are plenty more available.
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[HTML_REMOVED] Dear Mr. Crist
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[HTML_REMOVED] Let me first apologize for phoning you home # at 5.30 pm I simply pulled your
[HTML_REMOVED] # from the internet.I certainly didn't want to disturb you may be you should
[HTML_REMOVED] post your email on the internet to avoid this from happening again I do like
[HTML_REMOVED] my privacy also sorry again.
[HTML_REMOVED] My name is ………. Dempsey Road and I speak for most residents who reside
[HTML_REMOVED] on this street. (East of Mountain Highway towards Braemar).We bought our home
[HTML_REMOVED] to retire, to enjoy the mountain trails walk our dogs enjoy the tranquility,
[HTML_REMOVED] the flora and fauna but during the last 2 years this area has become a zoo
[HTML_REMOVED] like Disneyland. The district decided beautifully to make Coleman street and
[HTML_REMOVED] up restricted parking and what everyone here knew was that it simply moved
[HTML_REMOVED] the problem to our area. SUV's park all along both sides of the road, we see
[HTML_REMOVED] them changing clothing, urinate in the rhododendrons, empty beer cans all
[HTML_REMOVED] over, race down hill from upper Dempsey at neck breaking speeds down hill and
[HTML_REMOVED] it is just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt or dies, such
[HTML_REMOVED] as cars backing out of drive ways, kids playing on the drive way and a ball
[HTML_REMOVED] goes on to the road and its business as usual, we have to get a few
[HTML_REMOVED] fatalities before the government takes action no matter how often they have
[HTML_REMOVED] been warned.
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[HTML_REMOVED] We wrote a letter to the North Shore News, to no avail, ( we knew they would
[HTML_REMOVED] not publish it as they are getting paid for advertising for the biking shops
[HTML_REMOVED] and with a $ 25 million bonanza annually to the North Shore as they report, (
[HTML_REMOVED] North Shore News February 15 2004) little chance they will print residents
[HTML_REMOVED] concerns.
[HTML_REMOVED] We have walked the Baden Powell trail for a decade, and nobody gives a damn
[HTML_REMOVED] about the erosion of the trails, the mountain bikes run the topsoil off, and
[HTML_REMOVED] the heavy rain water transforms the walking trials into muddy streams, tree
[HTML_REMOVED] roots are getting exposed, trees die and fall down. Biker enthusiasts are
[HTML_REMOVED] happily using chain saws higher up to fall trees to make jumping ramps, the
[HTML_REMOVED] sediments are rushing down and clogging culverts, resulting in excessive
[HTML_REMOVED] water in our back yards, fences shifting and its much more fun to bike
[HTML_REMOVED] through the bush, destroying new rejuvenating growth in fact to put it in
[HTML_REMOVED] simple terms they are destroying the ecosystem big time in the name of sport.
[HTML_REMOVED] I have already racked up large veterinary bills for glass cuts in my dogs
[HTML_REMOVED] pads, ( from discarded can tabs and broken bottles) which was once ( 3 years
[HTML_REMOVED] ago) a pristine forest. Constant advertising in the North Shore News
[HTML_REMOVED] portraying this area as the Mecca for mountain biking has pretty well
[HTML_REMOVED] destroyed our peaceful life in this area.
[HTML_REMOVED] My wife and I have been faithfully breaking down the jumping ramps on the
[HTML_REMOVED] pedestrian trails, we have had to jump aside for foul mouthed bikers racing
[HTML_REMOVED] down the pedestrian trails, taking our dogs out of their way and now we walk
[HTML_REMOVED] with a baseball bat as we will take the law in our own hands to protect our
[HTML_REMOVED] dogs and ourselves. We fondly remember the wildlife we had around this area
[HTML_REMOVED] but they are all but gone now, chased away by this "sport" The North Shore
[HTML_REMOVED] News further advised of a Mountain Bike Festival spanning Capilano to Seymour
[HTML_REMOVED] during August this year, , let the thousands of bikers come and ruin our
[HTML_REMOVED] forest even more. Interesting to attend an open house in a Lynn Valley School
[HTML_REMOVED] where the District proudly showed plans of making parking spaces so that more
[HTML_REMOVED] bikers can ruin our forest ( last year) . Don't misunderstand me, I am not an
[HTML_REMOVED] environmental freak, we are middle aged people living peacefully paying a
[HTML_REMOVED] hefty property tax to get away from the crime, hassle etc from down town, to
[HTML_REMOVED] enjoy nature, which is rapidly being destroyed in the name of sport. Get
[HTML_REMOVED] these people off the North Shore and let them wreck the ecosystem in their
[HTML_REMOVED] own communities why ours??????
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[HTML_REMOVED] Mr Crist, I read your article and anything you can do to put an end to this
[HTML_REMOVED] destruction would be greatly appreciated
[HTML_REMOVED] You can contact me to confirm this at [Ernie Crist] …
[HTML_REMOVED] Ronald B [Ernie Crist] …
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my reply to that…

I can see your side of the argument, as I'm sure that a tiny minority of mountain bikers are rude and dangeous…. however so are some people in the street. that is just human nature! I don't feel that the community of mountain bikers should have to suffer as a result of these few individuals.

Other comments they wrote, I disagree with!

for a start… the couple who complained about having to pick glass out of their dogs paws….

I ask you this… would it be in a mountain bikers best interest to have glass strewn across a trail? no! would somebody who is likely to have a crash be carrying a glass bottle?? no! When i was first in vancouver 4 years ago… I remember riding down a trail to find an old man standing in the middle of a junctionin the trail smashing bottles and littering! He was clearly just trying to frame the biking comunity.He then proceeded to swear at us, and as we rode off (after being very polite and generally just trying to avoid an argument) he through a section of fallen log at us! I'm sure this sort of thing still happens! So I would suggest that before you start pointing the finger, that maybe you should try and get some proof about who the guilty people actually are!?

As for locals complaining about trees being cut down in order to make trails…. I couldn't agree more! I feel that the whole magc behind the north shore trails is based on the fact that it is all natural. I know that all the major trail builders never cut trees down, a chainsaw may be heard however as a fallen tree is cut up to make trails… however this will just speed up the natural decomposition.

I feel that an agreement has to be reached between locals and riders! banning cyclists is not the answer!

thanks!

Keith

I don't want to be agressive, I just want him to think a bit!

but people…. I suggest that we take notice of what the locals are complaining about!

If we behave better then they will not have as much of a problem!

I received the same email response

Ditto: same response to me: I wrote back, and hope I wasn't out of line:

"Thanks for your prompt response.

With all due respect to this particular complaint, it is evident that this resident has a vendetta against mountain bikers. That is fair, and is his right. However, he has several holes in his complaint. He claims that 3 years ago Fromme was a pristine forest. I would argue that over the last three years, mountain bike usage on Fromme has actually leveled, if not slightly decreased. Seymour mountain, whose trails are accessible by vehicle, has contributed to spreading the riders out. These days when I ride at Fromme, I'm surprised by how few the number of riders are. Mainly, I attest this to the fact that Seymour and Cypress, along with areas such as the Woodlot in Maple Ridge, Squamish, and Whistler Mountain in the spring / summer / fall, have all developed into popular mountain biker destinations. This has helped actually lighten the traffic at Fromme. Certainly, the trails are far less busy then when I used to frequent them more often 3 years ago.

I will not disagree with his complaint about rider behavior…some use poor judgment in, for example, urinating in public and littering beer cans. Similar problems you'll see at your local soccer pitch on a Sunday afternoon after a Men's league game, or at a softball diamond any weekday of the summer. This isn't to condone the behavior, just to point out the obvious that it isn't a unique problem to mountain biking. The solution is to work at eliminating the problem through communication.

Also, this person bemoans community events like the Mountain Bike Festival that promote health, participation, and recreation. North Vancouver has been host to many, many community events and festivals like this over the years, so I ask how this is different? I myself have competed in many triathlons and duathlons in North Vancouver over the years, and my lasting memories are all positive.

Finally, he asks, "Get these people off the North Shore and let them wreck the ecosystem in their own communities why ours?????? "

The vast majority of mountain bikers on the North Shore are North Vancouver citizens. They also pay hefty taxes. There voices are equally important as this person's voice, or your voice. Complaining the loudest, and expressing it in what very much appears to be personal and exaggerated letter, does not give this person higher priority to the North Vancouver Citizens that also happen to be mountain bikers.

Kindest regards,

Michael Meade"

Originally posted by builttoride
**but people…. I suggest that we take notice of what the locals are complaining about!

If we behave better then they will not have as much of a problem! **

Amen.
Emails sent and will be in attendance.

Originally posted by builttoride
but people…. I suggest that we take notice of what the locals are complaining about!

We do take a lot of notice of locals (I am a local). As with any large user group there are going to be isolated cases of conflict. 95% of locals are happy. The other 5% will never be happy, and they make the most noise.

I wouldn't even bother reading, or at least take very little notice of the auto response that Crist has set up.

He hates mountain bikers and has been on a crusade to get rid of us for a long time. He is now kicking it up a notch. He is a guy who will take one piece of paper, such as the one he is using as his auto response, and will wave it around saying this is a prime example of the mayhem happening all over North Van.

He is not going to even read our emails, but there are sane minds on Council, and hopefully they will.

Crist is a crack pot. Unfortunately, there are enough crack pots of a similar mindset to keep him in public office.

Everyone should get out to this meeting and be counted. It is important. DON'T RELY ON OTHERS TO DO ALL THE WORK.

My reply to Ernie Crist :

Dear Counciller Crist,

Thank you for sharing your side of the story with me. Some aspects of the
email you forwarded to me are intriguing:

SUV's park all along both sides of the road, we see them changing =
clothing, urinate in the rhododendrons, empty beer cans all over, race =
down hill from upper Dempsey at neck breaking speeds down hill and it is =
just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt or dies, such =
as cars backing out of drive ways, kids playing on the drive way and a =
ball goes on to the road and its business as usual, we have to get a few =
fatalities before the government takes action no matter how often they =
have been warned."

I do not live in this area, so I cannot refute the claim that Dempsey Road has has degereratred to an out-of-control punk-fest. Indecent exposure, public urination, drinking/possessing open alcohol in a public place, dangerous driving (reckless endagerment) are all covered in the criminal code. Why is the RCMP taking no action? If this was occuring in my neighbourhood, I would report criminal activity to the RCMP. In fact, I would consider the RCMP's inaction a travesty in this case. Has there been an attendant increase in the rates of property crime, theft, assult in this area?

"We have walked the Baden Powell trail for a decade, and nobody gives a =
damn about the erosion of the trails, the mountain bikes run the topsoil =
off, and the heavy rain water transforms the walking trials into muddy =
streams, tree roots are getting exposed, trees die and fall down."

It does not take cycling to denude and degenerate the trail system in a rainforest. There are severely eroded parts of the Baden Powell trail that have never seen a bicycle tire (for example the area immediately above Mystery Creek on Mt. Seymour).

"I have already racked up large =
veterinary bills for glass cuts in my dogs pads, ( from discarded can =
tabs and broken bottles) which was once ( 3 years ago) a pristine =
forest."

I boggles my mind that cyclists would leave sharp objects on a trail. This a sport that involves riding on pneumatic tires, for which a flat tire is a surefireway to ruin one's day. The implication that mountain bikers MUST be invovled seems a tad irresponsible. And the assertion that Mount Fromme was a pristine forest in 2001 is ridiculous. Don't take my word for it. Our Parks department could verify this.

"…bikers come and ruin our forest even more.."

The phrase "our forest" suggests a sense of entitlement that goes beyond a standard title deed.

"we are middle aged people living peacefully paying a hefty =
property tax to get away from the crime, hassle etc from down town, to =
enjoy nature…"

Here I feel a common bond with the author. It would also describe all the people I mountain bike with. Among the people I ride with is a carpenter, charted accountant, an attorney, a credit union employee, a cancer researcher, a diesel mechanic, a computer programmer - the list goes on. We are your neighbours, we grew up with you or your children, our children share the same schools and playgrounds. We are the community too.

My point here is not a line-by-line accusation/counter accusation. I do agree there are issues to be worked out. Like every activity that involves a wide swath of society, there are saints and sinners among us. I would consider the bad apples a very small minority. I urge you to keep an open mind on this issue.

Respectfully Yours,

Duncan N.

does anybody know if the 2 surrey sluts are allowed to go to nv meetings? i dunno how these things work but i really want to show some people how realistic thinking from a couple of well educated 17 year old kids can be much more effective than the combined effort of many ignorant "experienced" councellors.

I should join in and also REP' SURREY

team surrey slut: get on it

:lol:

Good point: Is it North Van res's only?? :???:

hey im no expert or anything and i probably wont have anything to say but can i show up anyways its right by my house and i have monday off……so i will be there……this crist guy sounds like a interesting character

Hey… I say all you guys are more than welcome to come. The more support the better.

Is there a rule out there that says an old persons vote is worth more than a young persons.. an old guy is more intellegant than a young guy.. someone who lives on McNair is more worthy than someone who lives in Mission???…….I think not.

Come along and see how our dysfunctional system works.

For youth to show enough passion about what we're fighting for to travel to North Van for a Council meeting speaks volumes for our cause. I'm proud to sit along side any mountain biker regardless of age and where you live.

Originally posted by Rat
I received the same email response

Me too.

At the Council meeting of June 23 2003, Councillor Crist proposed that mountain biking be relocated from Mount Fromme to GVRD land. There were no motions passed on the proposal that I can discern from the vids of the meeting (which are on dnv.org), nor any comments from other Councillors. Maybe I missed something as his Feb 6 2004 Report to Council states:

_When the mountain biking issue was dealt with by Council, it was with the understanding that the accommodation of mountain bikers on existing District parks including parking etc. would be temporary since there is an inherent and irreconcilable conflict between this sport and the pedestrian use of District parks. The nature of mountain biking is such that those fundamental contradictions cannot be resolved under any circumstances.

It was for this reason that Council gave instructions to prepare a Strategic Plan for the relocation of mountain biking. Council was told that the plan would be ready towards the end of 2003. This was later changed to 2004, and later still to the Fall of 2004 when a Strategic Plan centering around the relocation of mountain biking to more suitable areas and away from existing residential areas in the District would be presented to Council._

I asked for clarification of these points, such as when Council made these decisions, but I did not get an answer (the response I received is too strange to quote here).

AHHHH im sooo PISSED OFF!! Ok i dont know what to say or do, ( im rather shy and not very outspoken when it comes to standing up for myself, and shit like that) I REALLY want to come to this meeting, would someone be able to come pick me up on their way there? ( i just live on Mcnair and i feel that my presences would be worth alot - since i live so damn close) I havent lived here very long, but the attitude people give me is horribal, the looks i get when im loading/unloading my bike/s , and when i let people park in my driveway people look at me like im a trader. Im so sick of this bullshit saying we are bad people.

What i dont understand is, we work so damn hard to keep our trails nice, good, beautiful organic masterpeices- Have you ever seen a hiker taking time out of their lives to do some maintenence on their hiking trails?????????? uh uh NO thats what i thought. And how dare they say 'our' mountain, they dont own it!! They didnt build the trails they run/jog/hike/ walk dogs on! they just go up the trails we made and say we are corroting THEIR mountain!!!! i DONT UNDERSTAND!!! ahhhh..

Im sorry for all the spelling mistakes, i really dont care right now im just so pissed off :mad: