Now that is gold.
Dear Woodro Part 3
Drew, you're the kind of attitude that is needed around here and with NSMBA. I don't know you, but I'll buy you beers any day.
locals = Cabana
The one person, one account works well on a few other forums I am on. It is an instant ban for all accounts and any further accounts using the same details. It works well in that people know if they go too far, that they are held accountable as that same person. If they try the multiple accounts, they are gone for good.
I'm not locals, but I understand if all of the cynicism that had spawned from people using multiple accounts makes that hard to believe.
I've said my piece and Cam had responded to my request. I will not post in this thread again.
"Constant rage: could people f*cking up all the time be to blame?" - The Onion
If people want to jump on the social media, instant gratification bandwagon, sure. Pull your support from the NSMBA. Ya, that makes sense…..lets neuter our only official entity in the grand scheme of political relationship building that we have in the local mountain bike community. Pull those dollars because of half truths. Partial stories. Political posturing. Friendly allegiances. Yup, that makes sense. We could use our thinking, objective brains I guess but….that apparently is too simple.
How about we let our elected board enforce our constitution and bylaws? How about we let an employer/employee agreement play out in the realm of private employer/employee discussions just like in the rest of the world?
The NSMBA bylaws are silent on how the directors supervise their employee. Mark Wood's employee agreement is private and I believe that to be appropriate. I would like the NSMBA to clarify the "internal processes" they used to speak to Mark the couple of times that James Wilson/myself and Sharon/myself spoke to them about Mark Wood in May 2014 and May 2015 but I strongly doubt I will get an answer. Perhaps someone else can ask? Was it just Vince? Was it Vince/Rachid? Was it the entire board? Was the action a note to file? Or are there real consequences to Mark if he repeatedly violates his agreement or when he violated the NSMBA Social Media Policy for Employees (yes there is one).
I don't believe the NSMBA's elected board supervises Mark adequately. If they did they would be aware of his plans and believe they would ask him to share his plans with other trailbuilders. I don't believe the NSMBA board endorsed Mark when he sent blackmail PMs to an independent trailbuilder threatening to open that trailbuilders' trail to the world. I don't believe the NSMBA board endorsed Mark's actions when he lied in telling other people that Sharon/Wade put illegal trails on the mapbook. I don't believe the NSMBA board endorsed Mark's actions when he told land managers that James/Sharon were planning to put a trail through their land.
But when the NSMBA board makes excuses for Mark Wood's actions ("misunderstanding", "he's passionate", "he's hotheaded") I submit the NSMBA board does not have control over Mark.
Maybe let the legal process that is now in play SORT OUT THE BS and get back to us with a decision?
It's been two weeks since I received the letter. The letter from the lawyer that Mark sic'ed on me. I still have no contact from Mark. He's welcome to talk to me about why he has issues with Sharon and me and James and Wade. He's welcome to explain the basis on which he has authority over the trailwork we do.
Seriously folks, let this BS settle to the bottom for the lawyers and Executive Boards to deal with. Before it hurts more of our external funding, limits access to more of our trails, and makes more enemies than we will be able to deal with in a lifetime. Making this shite public has caused more damage to the everyday trail user than most know. Let the courts and the NSMBA Board sort through this mess.
At any time, the NSMBA board has the ability to "sort things out".
Mark was the first person to involve lawyers. It's Mark's prerogative to pile on the lawyers and initiate court action if he feels strongly enough about it. If Mark Wood initiates legal action I will defend myself. Every lawyers letter, every court document, witnesses, testimony all will be made public in their full boring glory. I have no interest in hiding and every interest in the truth of how this gigantic can of worms came to be
if this shit show was happening in the valley ,i know for one i would be definitely rethinking who and where i was donating my time with on trail builds and at race functions .
there will be little to no positive results from this IMO .
In the Fraser Valley every little area has a bunch of grumpy builders who don't always get along and catfight and don't see eye to eye. But they settle things by talking to each other. And they present that FVMBA united front. If Mark had talked to us right from the start (I'm talking 2011'ish) that would have gone a long way. Instead he came in and started ordering Sharon and I around and when trailbossedness got ignored he got more and more pushy and then downright nasty (that's 2014ish if anyone's counting).
That's the big difference between here and the Fraser Valley. No-one in the valley got the I'm the lord of all I survey and all bow down to me hat. And if they did I'd bet they would have gotten put in their place quickly.
word. I've been here just over 20 years now and remember when the shore was rad. more of this :couple: less of this :deadhorse:
In 1995 there were way less trails but way more dorps to falt. In 1995 no-one would have dreamed of telling anyone else what to do. Although even then all trailbuilders thought they were god and everyone else sucked.
Mistruths? Decide for yourselves.
You want to know who I am?
Why? So I can be the next target of Lee and Sharon's slander campaign?I'll tell you this Mark Rowe. Long before you got approval to build salvation without the inclusion of the NSMBA (which both Lee and Sharon had strong opinions about) a particular "founding member" of the NSMBA consulted a lawyer for the same reasoning of Mark Wood, Defamation of character.
Who am I? I'm Lee, Pat, Mark, Sharon, Dave, Todd, Jerry, Graham, Chaz, Martin. I'm busterbluth, Drew, every a-hole on this forum. I'm Mark Rowe. Vince, Seb, Richard, need me to go on?
I'm the F'in internet buddy.
Welcome to the World Wide Web of exaggeration and lies.
As I mentioned before, I have spoke to ALL parties regarding this matter. Yes Mark, all three.
I couldn't care less about their personal issues but until they stop shoving their shit in our faces they should all deal with the consequences of involving the internet.
locals/Mark Wood (and if you're not Mark I'm sure you'll correct me)
I get why you're cracking up and lashing out and lawyering up. All the stuff you've pulled. The lies. The bullying. The harassment. It's all coming out in the open. You're better at covering your tracks now but for quite a while you were sloppy and you sent emails and PMs and left facebook messages; "If you're not a part of the solution you're part of the problem". "You're either with us or against us". It'll be tough to deny you wrote those. I'm sure your lawyer told you that already.
You had it pretty good. You made yourself a full time job in one of the coolest areas to ride in the world and you were doing great things with it. And now the people who've had negative interactions with you are going "hey - he pulled that stunt on other people too". Airing all the crazy things you've done can't be good for your reputation.
I bet when you started out with the NSMBA (in 2009-10??) you were probably fundamentally honest and had good intentions. Somewhere along maybe you did a few things that stepped over the line. Those few little things escalated and then you got more and more sideways. You can't really be blamed for the weak internal NSMBA governance and board which let you do what you wanted and never really supervised you. That explains why you developed all these "Seymour plans" and "Fromme plans"; plans of which the NSMBA aren't even aware. Because you never told the NSMBA so how could the NSMBA disclose the plans or seek the community's input into those plans?
And I can see how Sharon/James/I caused problems with you. When we want to do or fund trailwork independently of the NSMBA apparently we must have frustrated your plans. Plans you didn't bother to tell us about.
Just a couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine who got a permit to work on trails independently of the NSMBA (he wanted to stay out of politics) told me that the ranger who granted his permit got an earful from you Mark. You said to the Ranger that by granting the permit to my friend that it was "taking paid jobs away from NSMBA builders". That means taking money away from you. I can see more clearly why you hate Sharon and I. We're not the only builders who want to stay away from the NSMBA but we're definitely pretty public. And we're taking money away from your retirement kitty. We're threatening your self-appointed status as gatekeeper for all trailwork on the Shore.
If there's still a smidgen of good intentions in you do the right thing Mark. Sign something saying you'll stop harassing Sharon and me. Stop harassing my friends. Stop blackmailing my friends. Stop with the lies. Just walk away from all that. Do your job with TAP and the Academy. You're paid for it after all and I'd bet your job descriptions doesn't have the line item -- Being Boss of all things Shore.
Give the NSMBA an out. The directors are harmless. They're backing you because they have no choice and can't make a decision to save their life. They've drunk your koolaid and will back you all the way -- down a hole if you will drag them there. So don't drag them down the hole. You've already committed professional reputational suicide. Don't make them do the same thing.
And if you get tired of this Mark and walk away just remember that the bike community here has a short memory. In five years you'll be forgotten. For you there's always back to the cruise ships or maybe selling timeshares in Vegas Baby! or something else. And maybe you can come back here after that five years or so is over and just go ride trails or something.
And maybe that will let the NSMBA board save face. Try to expunge the "with us or against us" culture that you built. Try to get away from the "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" that you indoctrinated. The NSMBA can survive. They can come back to actually representing the community and not just be the Mark Wood Mountain Biking Association.
So whaddaya say locals/Mark? How's that for a couple of solutions? You can talk to me about this any time. Bring a lawyer if it makes you feel better. Or send a process server to my front door with another letter if you really think that will help.
Lee, what are you really trying to accomplish with these threads? What is the true ultimate goal here? These are real questions by the way I'm not trying to be clever.
PoppaJ - hopefully helpful answer. Mark has harassed Sharon and my friends and myself. I've asked the NSMBA board to intervene. Their efforts are not satisfactory.
I want Mark to learn that harassing Sharon is not acceptable. Mark cares greatly about his reputation. These threads expose dishonest, amoral and unethical things he's done. Documented by his own words and witnessed by others. Therefore indefensible by Mark Wood.
That's the only behavioural modification tool I have over Mark. He harasses Sharon. He harasses my friends. He hires a lawyer and goes after me. I find those things to be intolerable. So I'll open my dossier of stupid stuff Mark Wood has done and it'll get aired in public bit by bit till he learns.
Really? You've not read the attacks on here over the last few years from certain anonymous forum names? I can be an online dick at times, and some of the great people I know can be too, so in some respects I don't care, but if someone is in charge of a project, and someone else is constantly sticking the needle in (and has since apologized on here IIRC), it's hardly surprising that there is tension. As for 'screaming' commented by Zedbra, again Lee has changed his story on this, as it transpired that his side of the story was somewhat exaggerated.
It's all a big shitshow, and people taking sides when they don't even live in the area or know anything about what is going on doesn't exactly help. Who's the winner here? At this rate it'll be the mad frog lady.
(FTR, I'm 'neutral' as both sides are good people. I just find the polarizing arguing pretty tedious)
Yah I was pretty juvenile with the name calling and ol-dirty correctly called me on it. I did promise to stop and stop I did through mid July through August. I was pretty happy to let the "Dear Woodros" fall off the front page of the boards and not reply to them at all. However I lapsed when I got really pissed off at the cheap shot lawyers letter. I got process-served on August 24th at my front door. In August - right in the middle of the cooling off period called by the NSMBA. But I'll say it to you that I'll cut it out.
I will put this to you and not singling you out. Mark is full time paid. He's the public face of a pretty public organization. He's gonna get flak and grief. That's the nature of the job. And if he can't handle it then he shouldn't be the public face. Maybe he should just quit reading NSMB or facebook or instagram or whatever. We've all seen the famous periodic Woodro blowups foot-in-mouths and then Rachid having to come in and clean up after. Mark Wood most definitely shouldn't be threatening to sue people who criticize him for defaming him - like I said I'm only the third person he's threatening to sue.
You know tension I can understand especially if he feels he's being unfairly criticized. There's no secret I'm not terribly interested in Mark's respect or affection (and him in mine). But I am interested in not being bullied or harassed or having my wife, friends etc bullied or harassed. And when the public face of a public organization goes beyond "tension" and steps over the line; like Mark has done over and over again I think it's quite reasonable for me to push back.
The bottom line is that neither he nor the NSMBA have authority over the trailwork Sharon/I do. If he or the NSMBA want to be gatekeeper of all trailwork that goes on in the Shore they have to earn that right through respect and trust. And in my mind neither Mark Wood nor the NSMBA have earned that trust.
I bet when you started out with the NSMBA (in 2009-10??)
And maybe that will let the NSMBA board save face. Try to expunge the "with us or against us" culture that you built. Try to get away from the "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" that you indoctrinated. The NSMBA can survive. They can come back to actually representing the community and not just be the Mark Wood Mountain Biking Association.
i think the "with us or against us" culture has been going on much longer then the last 5-6 years. i feel like the nsmba has been trying to control all trail building in north van and has tried to use intimidation and veiled threats to do so for a long time. i don't think these are beneficial tactics and the nsmba could bring more trail building under nsmba influence by having more frequent and less rigidly planned general trail days. I stopped building and riding in north van 5-6 years ago so i don't know if its gotten worse sense then but i have never seen a nsmba representative turning green and raising there voice, but if that happened that is unacceptable and requires discipline by the board of directors.
i think the "with us or against us" culture has been going on much longer then the last 5-6 years. i feel like the nsmba has been trying to control all trail building in north van and has tried to use intimidation and veiled threats to do so for a long time. i don't think these are beneficial tactics and the nsmba could bring more trail building under nsmba influence by having more frequent and less rigidly planned general trail days. I stopped building and riding in north van 5-6 years ago so i don't know if its gotten worse sense then but i have never seen a nsmba representative turning green and raising there voice, but if that happened that is unacceptable and requires discipline by the board of directors.
how do you define long time?
i know that just as i started to get involved with trail building (approx 15yrs ago), while i was directly involved with the nsmba and for a short time afterwards i did not see an organization trying to control all trail building and defintely no use of intimidation or veilded threats. there were definitely defined plans/strategies and goals in terms of what trail work would get done and how it would get done particularly when it came to building that was "illegal" or performed in a highly counter-productive way.
the thing is in order for trail work to be effective it helps to have a well defined plan, which of course should be open to discussion before hand. you need to have guidelines that say this is the direction we should move in and these are things we should stay away from and avoid. just as limiting all building to a particular style is not beneficial, neither is turning people loose to just figure things out as they go.
well before the current TAP program, there was an adoption program in place where aspiring builders could connect with an experienced builder to take on a trail that did not have a dedicated builder and to learn some of the ropes before they were set loose on a trail.
i can look back now on things i may not have agreed with at the time and say yes, that was the best way to go at the time given the existing circumstances. until you have gained a certain level of knowledge and experience, simply being an avid rider does not give you the tools necessary to go out and be an effective builder. you may have the tools to say this works or that doesn't, but you don't necessarily have the tools required to say how it should actually get fixed or improved.
i think part of the problem is that there has not been enough long term consistency in terms of doing things, so the wheel's been re-invented a few times. attrition is part of the beast unfortunately, as people often come into riding and building at one stage in their life and as things progress they find themselves leaving, often due to time constraints like family, career changes or other things that take away their time or make even take them away from the shore. and yes, sometimes people leave because they get tired of dealing with crap from the riding public and possibly other builders as well. that loss of exeprience and knowledge means the trails suffer if there is not a good flow of new people coming into building culture. as good as it is to have significant numbers of people getting out to help on trail days, you need those highly experienced people to plan, delegate and teach others how to do things.
this is why, in spite of some disagreements with Lee and "challenging" conversations with Sharon i still hold them in high esteem. it's the way they brought me in to the fold and educated me on the process. and i'm not the only one saying this. others are as well.
there will always be challenges with any volunteer organization, including differences of opinion of how things should be run. the sucess of an organization is often determined not by the actual plan they had, but how they dealt with the challenges that came up along the way. as much as i believe in some of the things Mark Wood has done, as much as I appreciate the work the boards puts in and the things they have to put up with, i firmly beleive this current hurdle is not being handled in the best way possible.
We don't know what our limits are, so to start something with the idea of being limited actually ends up limiting us.
Ellen Langer
Entitled windbag
I'm not one for censorship
But can this just end??
Wrong. Always.
What is more insidious: some hot-head occasionally being a douche to people or an oftentimes manipulative trail builder publicly trying to get a man fired from his job?
Seriously, regardless of what you say has happened Lee, how can you expect Mark NOT to follow legal channels to try and shut down your campaign attacking his career? We are no longer just talking about a yelling match here and there or disagreements on trail routing (!??), we are talking about a man's livelihood. You know, somewhat important things LIKE BEING ABLE TO FEED ONE'S FAMILY AND PAY THEIR MORTGAGE!
You have finally made it clear that your only intention is to have Mark fired and removed from the local MTB community. Sorry dude, that just doesn't fly. I had a feeling that was the case when you were saying you just "wanted to be left alone" but we all know now that this is just BS. You are out for blood, out to take away his job and destroy his reputation (one he has admittedly compromised by his actions at times). The only thing more sad is that yours and Sharon's reputations are decimated now as well. All three of you lose and since you brought it into the public domain in a manipulative, destructive fashion, now the whole community loses. Many might not realize how much of a direct and negative impact your campaign has had on certain trails by specific land managers. But I know you do…..and yet you still persist in making this a big public affair because Mark is such a scary guy that you couldn't deal with man to man. Brutal.
If Mark actually threatened you or Sharon, go to the RCMP. If it is less than that, whether you like it or not, the NSMBA is your only avenue to air your grievance. Continuing this personal and very public vendetta against Mark quite frankly just reenforces his legal claims against you and Sharon. And endangers the trail resources that we apparently all want to protect.
Maybe keep Wade and James out of your diatribes too…..it would be a shame to have them tarred with the same agenda that you are pitching here. I certainly hope that you are not speaking for them at least. :(
lee is only 37?
What Boozy says. Does Mark's alleged actions really condone a 3 Part Dear Woodro thread? (Soon to be four or five I'll bet.)
Nothing new is presented on your part. You keep going on endless rants but the issues are just the same as you originally went off about. Only now he's lawyered up. I don't blame him.
Wrong. Always.
I will be renewing my NSMBA membership this year and for years to come. I would like to thank all the amazing volunteers and committed builders of the current NSMBA. You all have taken the North Shore leaps and bounds ahead of what it used to be. This website is just a big thorn in the communitys back, full of negativity by all 12 of it users. This site does not represent the real riding community. All the real riders are out there now having fun on the amazing work the NSMBA has accomplished, instead of complaining about exaggerated and misinformation. Thanks to all that help make life as a rider in this community amazing.
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