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Dear Woodro Part 2

July 27, 2015, 10:01 a.m.
Posts: 321
Joined: Aug. 10, 2012

Speaking for those that are unfamiliar with the politics of the trail building world (and likely those that lurk, but don't post their opinion), this thread is doing more harm than good.

I'm not questioning, judging, negating, or minimizing the issues between the parties, but I will say that this particular post makes it clear that getting involved (good-natured volunteering)in trail work has the potential for jumping into a powder-keg.

July 27, 2015, 10:12 a.m.
Posts: 351
Joined: March 4, 2013

despite what the kumbaya crowd of clueless "it's just bikes" people say, disputes and conflicts have been a fairly regular thing in the building scene, and i'm sure always will be.

something to do with the hundreds and hundreds of hours that are put in, and also maybe the personalities of people who can actually stomach the hard thankless work that it actually is.

this is only for those out there maintaining trails on their own time. going to TAP/public days is a totally different thing.

July 27, 2015, 11:31 a.m.
Posts: 13930
Joined: March 15, 2003

Speaking for those that are unfamiliar with the politics of the trail building world (and likely those that lurk, but don't post their opinion), this thread is doing more harm than good.

I'm not questioning, judging, negating, or minimizing the issues between the parties, but I will say that this particular post makes it clear that getting involved (good-natured volunteering)in trail work has the potential for jumping into a powder-keg.

Isn't that good information to have prior to jumping in? I know I read reviews online about items and places prior to committing to purchase/visit; if no one speaks up then you are going in blind.

July 27, 2015, 11:47 a.m.
Posts: 321
Joined: Aug. 10, 2012

Isn't that good information to have prior to jumping in? I know I read reviews online about items and places prior to committing to purchase/visit; if no one speaks up then you are going in blind.

Absolutely…in this case, it makes one want to avoid it all (until grumpy clarified the TAPS angle).

July 27, 2015, 1:50 p.m.
Posts: 221
Joined: March 27, 2014

The 3 D’s of Success:

Dedication, Determination, Discipline.

The 3 E’s of Failure:

Ego, Entitlement, Emotion.

It is obvious how this plays into this thread and all in our community of builders, riders, leaders, and followers.

I will be the first to admit that I have screwed up royally with the 3 E’s recently. There is no way “passion” can be attributed to my screw up!!! This is a big learning lesson I have lived. Thankfully, those around me let me know clearly and professionally of my lack of awareness. Only through their communication was I able to learn this lesson. And I acknowledge this and thank them.

I share this here since I think it is relevant.

Realize the 3 E’s do not get you to the successful Finish Line, but the 3 D’s do.

Maybe this will help with some personal private breakthroughs in understanding with those involved. As such, they are personal and private, so likely you will not read about it here.

Talk less, Say More.

July 27, 2015, 3:09 p.m.
Posts: 33325
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

The 3 D’s of Success:

Dedication, Determination, Discipline.

The 3 E’s of Failure:

Ego, Entitlement, Emotion.

Right on the money.

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells

July 27, 2015, 4:29 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: July 9, 2015

Kever

Thanks for the response. I know you're just the messenger but the message certainly is illuminating! It's like I feared. Mark views himself as being the gatekeeper (or boss if you want to be ungenerous) of all trailwork on the Shore. The actions of Sharon and I in doing trailwork and building trails without his knowledge or input threaten that. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. If this is a fair characterization then this is a problem in so many ways.

The biggest problem I see is that the NSMBA doesn't take Mark Wood's stance. You can see in NSMBA 101 and the Townhall discussion about NSMBA 101 that the NSMBA takes the position that they're a steward in a Metro and DNV where there is an active land manager (but acknowledges that independent builders can do work outside the NSMBA - eg Jaclyn has a permit to work on Ridgerunner independent of the NSMBA. This is what Vince said to me and its in NSMBA 101. This begs the question; why does Mark have a monopolistic attitude towards trailwork that's so counter to the NSMBAs more inclusive outlook?

You can see why this is so confusing and why I would just as soon be left alone.

I'll reply to your other points later - sorry some other questions from other people I should answer.

OK, I don't want to make things too personal as I do respect the amount and type of trail work that both you and Mark do. Mark and I have talked about some of these issues in the past so I'll do my best to share his perspective. That being said, I don't want to make a habit of being his little birdy, I just think his side of the story needs to be shared so it's not so one sided.

Re: Part 1 Asian Adonis

Mark has a vision of what he wants the lower seymour zone to look like and was peeved that a trail was built outside of his vision. I'm not saying his vision was the only one that matters, but I am saying that the trail was put in without consulting the NSMBA, and he feels this is done in poor taste. He has told me that metro van has used the building of asian adonis as an excuse to put off or nix other projects in that area. Why metro van is concerned about happenings in land not managed by them is a mystery to me.

The changing of the description and negative reports are on him.

Re: Part 2 …

Mapbook. Mark is pissed that the NSMBA logo was used in the mapbook despite his asking not to. Although you started the NSMBA, at present you have chosen to operate outside of that umbrella and he feels that including the NSMBA endorsement is unwarranted for that reason. I'll have to ask him specifically about his reason for sending that private message, it seems unethical.

The "lies to land manager" seems to be a he said she said situation so I don't want to touch that. The crux of the Marks argument is that he sees new trails being built on seymour as a detriment to the good will the NSMBA is trying to establish with land managers. Bigger picture, he sees any new trail that is built on Fromme or Seymour (light side) as a threat to the relationship with active land managers. Hence why new trails need to remain secret, but never do because there are few secrets in North Vancouver. Matthew Bond said in a town hall meeting 2 or 3 years ago that the biggest threat to the organization was the proliferation of "loamers", due to trying to be good neighbours with land managers. Mark's intense hate of you and Sharon (which is not shared by me) stems from his view that your work is at odds with his and jeopardizes the future of his work and vision.

Re: yelling at Sharon, I observed things escalating quickly at the town hall meeting and that seems to be a two way street. Other than that I can't comment.

Mark is the first to admit that he's a bit of a hothead who can let his passion and temper get the best of him. I don't think you, Sharon and him will ever fully resolve the deep dislike for each other, but I do hope that both parties can ignore each other enough to carry on working on trails. Your solution of leaving each other alone does seem to be the best possible option. Leaving each other alone means both parties stopping the mud slinging and focusing on making the best trail network for the community.

Mark is a community minded builder who probably puts in more building hours than anyone except digger. Everyone who builds needs to have thick skin, as most praise is silent and everyone negative opinions are loud. Let the little things bounce off. I'll continue to try to keep Mark accountable as we do build and ride together occasionally.

Not sure how helpful this response was as you probably knew all this already but it needed to be said.

July 27, 2015, 4:30 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: July 9, 2015

Many who where involved till then walked away and never came back. Myself walked away and will NEVER do trail work on public land again because of one individuals ego and "vision". And I would not blame Lee and Sharon if they do the same.

That is not in the cards. Sharon and I like doing trailwork. We just want to be left alone to do trailwork. If others enjoy the trailwork we do in the Seymour CMHC area then it's hard to see why this is an issue.

July 27, 2015, 4:37 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: July 9, 2015

Thanks Kever. That's a lot of great info. It's good to hear the other side.

Some thoughts:

The Adonis thing is weird. If Mark/NSMBA had a plan, that's cool and should be respected, but if CMHC is a free for all building place, its kind of a lot for them to expect everyone to follow the plan. But if Lee knew there was a plan and went a built the trail anyway, sure he had every right to do that, but it's a bit of a dick move. If the plan wasn't public, its dumb of Mark to get pissed off about his secret plan getting fucked with.

Marlz

Sharon and I have been doing work in the C-Buster CMHC area since 2003. I started there with PD aka Piledriver. There was work done in that area by Syncro and Wade among others. Cove were the first with the CBuster trail in the late 80s so Shar/I were just latecomers.

Mark Wood never told us there was a plan. The NSMBA has told us as recently as 2015 that there is no plan. If Mark Wood had a plan he also didn't tell the NSMBA about it or the NSMBA is lying to us (which I don't believe happened).

I will tell you that the other builders in the CMHC area and us communicate about our trailwork plans. We call. We email. We talk to each other.

We don't scream at each other if there were issues or conflicting trails. We don't blackmail each other. We don't spread lies about each other. Asking Mark Wood to be polite; or failing politeness - simply to leave us alone doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request.

July 27, 2015, 4:39 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: July 9, 2015

AA is on CHMC land so there is no threat to active land managers. Penny Lane and all the other new trails/work would have the same affect as AA.

I spoke to Mayers about AA. His response. "Not our land. We don't care. But thanks for letting us know".

July 27, 2015, 6:22 p.m.
Posts: 1713
Joined: Dec. 31, 2006

All reading, please keep in mind this is my interpretation of what I've been told and how it applies to the topic of the thread. What I've written is not Mark's exact words.

Kever

Thanks for the response. I know you're just the messenger but the message certainly is illuminating! It's like I feared. Mark views himself as being the gatekeeper (or boss if you want to be ungenerous) of all trailwork on the Shore. The actions of Sharon and I in doing trailwork and building trails without his knowledge or input threaten that. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. If this is a fair characterization then this is a problem in so many ways.

The biggest problem I see is that the NSMBA doesn't take Mark Wood's stance. You can see in NSMBA 101 and the Townhall discussion about NSMBA 101 that the NSMBA takes the position that they're a steward in a Metro and DNV where there is an active land manager (but acknowledges that independent builders can do work outside the NSMBA - eg Muddbunnies have a permit to work on Ridgerunner independent of the NSMBA. This is what Vince said to me and its in NSMBA 101. This begs the question; why does Mark have a monopolistic attitude towards trailwork that's so counter to the NSMBAs more inclusive outlook?

You can see why this is so confusing and why I would just as soon be left alone.

I'll reply to your other points later - sorry some other questions from other people I should answer.

July 27, 2015, 6:45 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

That is not in the cards. Sharon and I like doing trailwork. We just want to be left alone to do trailwork. If others enjoy the trailwork we do in the Seymour CMHC area then it's hard to see why this is an issue.

Lee… actually worked for the better. Doing it on private land for our club and gained a whole new skill set because of that. :)

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

July 27, 2015, 8:16 p.m.
Posts: 5635
Joined: Oct. 28, 2008

I blame white people.

Wrong. Always.

July 27, 2015, 8:16 p.m.
Posts: 333
Joined: Dec. 21, 2008

Wow. Mark's credibility Just went to zero in my opinion. He has no authority to tell anyone what they can or can't do on cmhc lands. Yelling at Sharon or at anyone else is inexcusable. Keep up the good work Lee and Sharon, and please let me know next time you want help building on the north shore.

July 27, 2015, 8:35 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I blame white people.

Goddam Rough Shod Chainsaw Toting Trail Jihadists.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

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