cambodia update

Powerful statement.  The forest is a living dynamic constantly changing entity .

Sustainable trails are about attempting to control nature .

I love the idea of a " loamer " being abandoned as some do . Then nature takes over and consumes our scratches in the dirt . Honestly has a trail ever caused a landslide or poisoned a stream or a river ? Trail erosion caused by migrating water constantly changing its path under the loam. Unseen and unpredictable.  

This is why properly researched trail building by engineers is adopted by educational trail builders . Unfortunately Sustainable trails engineered to last are quite similar to asphalt coated roads . The level of damage caused by building these trails looks completely un natural to me . Unfortunately my first response is emotional out rage . Excavator s in the forest ? Building roads . It's not far off from the truth. 

But I am being terribly selfish. I have a feeling the majority of mountain bikers want a pleasant riding experience and are not gnar fiends like myself. I love primitive natural terrain . That's my joy. 

Are the trails Sustainable? No . The beauty is in nature taking over and consuming the trail with vegetation . In a few years the trail quietly gets absorbed back into equilibrium. 

There is a zone full of un sanctioned trails . With highly respected builders . These builders shut down and re rout punched out sections letting those damaged sections regenerate back into a natural state . 

We need and will always have both types of trails .

Primitive gnar and Sustainable trails that are in actuality devoid of nature.

Posted by: GB

There is a zone full of un sanctioned trails . With highly respected builders . These builders shut down and re rout punched out sections letting those damaged sections regenerate back into a natural state . 

The argument can be made that those sorts of sections take far more than a few years to regenerate.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: GB

There is a zone full of un sanctioned trails . With highly respected builders . These builders shut down and re rout punched out sections letting those damaged sections regenerate back into a natural state . 

The argument can be made that those sorts of sections take far more than a few years to regenerate.

Yeah, what I see is steep sections of loamer get rutted out to bedrock and then braid after braid gets added and the trail starts to sprawl across a fairly wide area. 

I'd imagine those ruts to bedrock don't "heal" very well. Bad combo of poor riding practices (ride, don't slide) and too much traffic. 

That's where I think the aforementioned boogie nights has a lower "net" impact. Yes it's a big built up pathway. But in terms of how much traffic it can support without sprawling out over a larger area and creating river beds everywhere, it's more sustainable. 

Not to say loamers aren't awesome or sustainable, but they have limitations.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: GB

There is a zone full of un sanctioned trails . With highly respected builders . These builders shut down and re rout punched out sections letting those damaged sections regenerate back into a natural state .

The argument can be made that those sorts of sections take far more than a few years to regenerate.

Thank you GB. The recognition is felt and deserved by all of us, I’m sure

Splinky, the rainforest only takes a year or two to regrow if properly closed and reestablished into a reroute. I can show multiple point of proof on Pangor.

Note the dates. This was down to hardpan and bedrock in places, A waist deep trench of water-flow down the remaining fall line fed by three springs in the trail bed.

I will bet most riders and hikers don’t notice they are on a reroute today, or that their ass stays dry in November.

When done as multiple braids and free-ride, then not so much. Definite sub-par trail design.

Posted by: Kenny

That's where I think the aforementioned boogie nights has a lower "net" impact. Yes it's a big built up pathway. But in terms of how much traffic it can support without sprawling out over a larger area and creating river beds everywhere, it's more sustainable.

For sure. Hand-built by a very dedicated small crew btw.

B-nights used to be a short loamer to falline logging skidder. The old line (still there in places) is nowhere to be seen. Had it become the Strava’d preferred loamer exit to bypass scary lower Boogie, it would be a mess now. Instead, its legally established into the network.

Posted by: syncro

When I think of a sustainable trail that's what comes to mind ^^^. The forest is a living entity, and just because we're destroying it in many other places for the sake of human consumption, it doesn't mean we should be doing the same thing when we're recreating in nature.

Cypress tressle walk and mansions, a sad lol.

Posted by: heckler

pics

I wouldn't call that regenerated, the scar is still there.

Posted by: heckler

Posted by: Kenny

That's where I think the aforementioned boogie nights has a lower "net" impact. Yes it's a big built up pathway. But in terms of how much traffic it can support without sprawling out over a larger area and creating river beds everywhere, it's more sustainable.

For sure. Hand-built by a very dedicated small crew btw.

B-nights used to be a short loamer to falline logging skidder. The old line (still there in places) is nowhere to be seen. Had it become the Strava’d preferred loamer exit to bypass scary lower Boogie, it would be a mess now. Instead, its legally established into the network.

Thanks for context! I think it speaks to an interesting philosophy that makes sense to me: let's get everyone on one trail that will be built to tolerate the elements and the ridership. Yes it will be higher impact where that trail is located, but this would basically eliminate a bunch of lower impact trails that might have a higher cumulative impact on the overall area. 

Personally I am not advocating either approach, both have their merits and have their places. I guess my bigger point is that lately it seems like these heavily built trails have more and more become the default as what land managers want to see everywhere, which is what I find objectionable. More and more, "sustainability" is being trotted out as the reason for alot of trail upgrades, and that just doesn't seem to be true to me in many cases.

Posted by: syncro

There are more than enough sanctioned trails in need of trailbuilders...

A lot easier said than done (believe me, I am trying!), there isn't exactly an application or recruitment process through the organization. Onto maintaining unsanctioned trails for me for the time being.

Thanks for the photos heckler that's pretty interesting.

Maybe a stupid question, but I guess when you close off a section like the one pictured, do you do some stuff to keep water from from eroding is further?

I think that's the thing with the loamer braids, the old lines just get abandoned and remain creeks.

Or will even a trench like that recover on its own, eventually? Especially with the crazy weather we get now I have assumed that those types of trenches essentially become a path of least resistance for water and the water erosion just snowballs and the trench gets bigger.

I'm keen to start doing some trail work. My kids are almost grown enough that I'm reclaiming some time.

The trench got turned into a water collection and diversion point, redirected into the forest to seep back into the sheet of water that flows everywhere under the forest when it rains, on top of the hardpan. 

I expect the lowest part will always flow water under the new short bridge, but the banks will, and already have, reestablished into forest floor.  

I would be happy to arrange an educational ride down Pangor in the early winter, if anyone is keen and reminds me in November. 

The best and easiest way to get involved in trailwork is to join and follow your local trail association. Start out by going to as many trail-days as you can and help and learn from the leaders as much as possible.  The really keen ones get noticed, picked up and mentored if they show the desire and dedication.   I did that in 2003-06, volunteered as a director 2007-11 (or thereabouts), and still lead the occasional group trail days…. Please don’t just grab a rake and start scratching in “your trail”.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: heckler

pics

I wouldn't call that regenerated, the scar is still there.

I said look at the dates. May 2023 was freshly reestablished. Please get off your “phone” and go take us a “today” picture in the same spot - if you can find it.

I’m honestly curious if anyone who was not involved can find that same spot and post a photo of the same vantage. Hint: it’s on Team Pangor proper.  Wait till the rains and the new growth should really pop out  

As soon as the water table is broken, it’ll always continuously seep in the rainy season, causing erosion. This is the aforementioned trench, and any other trench in our rainforest.

This is a major reason why poorly designed sections of trails get rerouted by trail associations or permanently closed by land managers