Biking up Grouse Mountain Service Road Permanently closed

Posted by: syncro

It's not an argument, it's just a physiological fact that nobody on this planet is capable of spending that much time in Zone 5 within a short period of time. It just does not happen. That's why I suggested that your numbers are off.

If you're doing a 1000m vert in an hour or two on a gravel road you physically cannot be in Zone 5 for 75% of that. The numbers just do not work.

Will try to help here. 100m sprinters can be in zone 5, right? Now we got over the distance. That means biking up on quite high gear (say 5-7). Basically to go faster you need to put a highest gear you can support (that solves the gradient) and keep pedalling faster. Now you continue pedalling without stopping. Your body tells you to stop, but you continue. This is the secret of going fast uphill LOL. You should try this.

Also, XC skiing (skating) is good for VO2. The skaters and bikers have the highest VO2 of any sports. I during winter season go 30-40 times skating, fast with some elevation gains. Really hard work. You should try this too to boost your VO2 and get better understanding.

Posted by: Hepcat

Wait, so not the Harper Rd Access side? The Gislason Ave side instead? I'm easily confused.

Love this subject btw, big lesser known sufferfest climbs. 

I've looked at Lions Bay for ages but haven't tried it.

There's a gravel path that goes up east of Coast Meridian and it looks like you might have to poach through a construction zone or dbl back to Coast Meridian and then head up Harper. I haven't done it myself but looking at the maps it seems like a viable way to get some big vert in close to the city.

I'll say it a different way. A heart rate zone that you can stay in for 75% of a 60 minute period, is not zone 5. Not knocking your efforts, that's just by definition. 

You max hr is probably higher than you think it is and your Garmin zones are not accurate. 

No big deal, you do you, but just as an FYI, zone 5 is just not what you think it is. That's all.

Posted by: bogdank

Posted by: syncro

It's not an argument, it's just a physiological fact that nobody on this planet is capable of spending that much time in Zone 5 within a short period of time. It just does not happen. That's why I suggested that your numbers are off.

If you're doing a 1000m vert in an hour or two on a gravel road you physically cannot be in Zone 5 for 75% of that. The numbers just do not work.

Will try to help here. 100m sprinters can be in zone 5, right? Now we got over the distance. That means biking up on quite high gear (say 4-6). Basically to go faster you need to put a highest gear you can support (that solves the gradient) and keep pedalling faster. Now you continue pedalling without stopping. Your body tells you to stop, but you continue. This is the secret of going fast uphill LOL. You should try this.

Unless you're the twin brother of Moser or Merckx and at the same time only 25-30yrs of age I just don't see how your numbers could be accurate. Especially not at 55yrs of age.

I'm not saying you don't ride hard, just that your estimate of being in Zone 5 for 45min straight is off. There's maybe been a handful of people in recent human history who could pull off that feat and they had pretty strict and dedicated training regimes, they weren't out just casually banging off 1000m climbs on the weekend. I recognize that some people have the rare genetics to allow this, but doing it at 55yrs is pretty much a no. To get an accurate account of what's happening people would need to do some lab testing to figure out their true MHR and lactate threshold so you know what your true HR numbers are to be able to plan a training plan accordingly. It's fascinating stuff to think about, but the limits of human physiology have pretty much been established and reached. If you're actually doing what you suggest then you could be competitive in the TDF and the cycling and running worlds world would be beating a path to your door to figure out your secret so they could copy it for the same level of success.

OK. Possibly my data is not accurate. Thanks for your insights. It was not necessary side topic on my part. 

Yes, possibly my HR Max is higher than assumed.

Posted by: bogdank

OK. Possibly my data is not accurate. Thanks for your insights. It was not necessary side topic on my part. 

Yes, possibly my HR Max is higher than assumed.

That's ok, going slightly off topic isn't necessarily a bad thing! It's great stuff to talk about and I think the discussion is appreciated by other people.

As I rode to work this morning on unsanctioned trails, it occurred to me that this problem is unfortunate but likely overblown. Core mountain bikers have been trespassing in BC for decades at this point. It's tradition! Eventually the gate will be unmanned and if you get caught, all that will happen is they'll ask you firmly to leave, which you'll do.... only to return the next time you wanna hit up that climb.

Posted by: Jotegir

As I rode to work this morning on unsanctioned trails, it occurred to me that this problem is unfortunate but likely overblown. Core mountain bikers have been trespassing in BC for decades at this point. It's tradition! Eventually the gate will be unmanned and if you get caught, all that will happen is they'll ask you firmly to leave, which you'll do.... only to return the next time you wanna hit up that climb.

A good perspective. Thank you. Will see how it will go.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: bogdank

Posted by: syncro
But maybe they're doing that 1000m climb in 2-3 hours at a leisurely pace and enjoying the scenery/journey in Zone 2 as opposed to mostly Zone 3 with some 4 thrown in to do it in an hour. 

In my case if conditions good: 75% of time zone 5, the rest is about initial warm up. I stop the watch on the top. That makes my Garmin to tell: "Overreaching 5.0", 4 days to recover :) This means for me: that was a really good ride.

That's not physically possible. I'd guess your estimation of your max HR and the zone you're in is off by quite a bit. Zone 5 is 90-100% of Max HR and at that zone you're good for a few minutes at best. The only thing that would change that is blood doping or EPO usage, but even at that 75% of your time is not possible - you'd collapse.

It might be Garmin's definition of Zone 5 that is different than what is universally accepted.  When I set my PB in a half-marathon my Garmin tells me that I spent 97% of my time in Zone 5 (which it describes as ">165 bpm - maximum").  That seems like a much broader range than the 90% - 100% figure you are using.  Again, I am not saying you're wrong - I'm speculating that Garmin defines their zones differently.

Thanks Ride.DMC.

I have used the Garmin Forerunner 245 (before using few other watches over the years). I noticed after getting the 245 that the built in HR watch sensor was very inaccurate/unstable. I called Garmin, they sent me another one. Did not improve. At that moment I switched back to the chest strip which seems way better (accuracy) and consistent.

I have not made any custom zones, relying on the Garmin default ranges and the tech. Yet, I'm open to the idea that, if anything, the prime suspect could be my Max HR, since having it personally measured in a special lab, would produce more solid data. But I'm not training for competitions to be bothered to do that and pay $ to someone.

But my hight exposure to Zone 5 is not related to this specific watch. This is very old pattern.

BTW: the built-in HR sensor often was showing that my HR goes lower the more I put effort. I was scared that maybe something with my heart is not good since Garmin sensor tech not working for me. I was really worried. Then recently I did lots of scans of my heart. The doctor was very happy with my heart state. My lesson is: don't worry, just keep biking.

I am operating on the premise that the heart rate data I am getting is most likely wrong - and that's fine as long as it is consistently wrong. :)

I use the Forerunner 35 - which was, at the time, the cheapest GPS equipped Garmin watch I could buy that had a HR sensor built in.

Heck, even the GPS data I get on my watch can fluctuate wildly from day to day - but it's close enough for my purposes.

My wife has the same watch and we often run together - and 9 times out of 10 my watch seems to reach our destination (5km, 10km, whatever) just a little bit faster than her every time - even though she is consistently faster/ahead of me!

Posted by: Jotegir

As I rode to work this morning on unsanctioned trails, it occurred to me that this problem is unfortunate but likely overblown. Core mountain bikers have been trespassing in BC for decades at this point. It's tradition! Eventually the gate will be unmanned and if you get caught, all that will happen is they'll ask you firmly to leave, which you'll do.... only to return the next time you wanna hit up that climb.

Riding on unsanctioned trails is not considered trespassing unless you're on private land. Most of the trails on the North Shore are crown land, which is managed by public land authorities. Ultimately, the land belongs to the citizens.

Yes, but, in this and many others the land is private or tenured, and that hasn't necessarily been a significant impediment.

Posted by: bogdank

Thanks Ride.DMC.

I have used the Garmin Forerunner 245 (before using few other watches over the years). I noticed after getting the 245 that the built in HR watch sensor was very inaccurate/unstable. I called Garmin, they sent me another one. Did not improve. At that moment I switched back to the chest strip which seems way better (accuracy) and consistent.

I have not made any custom zones, relying on the Garmin default ranges and the tech. Yet, I'm open to the idea that, if anything, the prime suspect could be my Max HR, since having it personally measured in a special lab, would produce more solid data. But I'm not training for competitions to be bothered to do that and pay $ to someone.

But my hight exposure to Zone 5 is not related to this specific watch. This is very old pattern.

BTW: the built-in HR sensor often was showing that my HR goes lower the more I put effort. I was scared that maybe something with my heart is not good since Garmin sensor tech not working for me. I was really worried. Then recently I did lots of scans of my heart. The doctor was very happy with my heart state. My lesson is: don't worry, just keep biking.

If you're tracking your heartrate that much, it might be worth finding someone with an indoor trainer with Zwift and doing a ramp test with the chest strap. That would show you your max HR and estimated 20 min power. Then you could setup HRs properly in Garmin, and get a little more effective HR training particularly around Zone 2. 

If you just want to smash Mt. Highway climbs as fast as you can, once a week, and don't care, that's different.