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Snowboarder caught in slide in Whistler.

Jan. 13, 2017, 4:04 p.m.
Posts: 18446
Joined: May 29, 2004

So you're saying you would ski/snowboard the exact same terrain if you didn't have a beacon on?

Depending on conditions (bomber snowpack on low risk slopes) yes.

I also (gasp!) tour solo when conditions allow.

Jan. 13, 2017, 4:32 p.m.
Posts: 14378
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

but there lies the question. Did they actually fuck up as you say. Or, they did everything right but things happened for whatever reason and only after do we understand. I'm not pretending to know but one thing I do (I've learned that from my job) is we pros can and do fuck up, by making a mistake or learning something new that we never considered.

edit:
btw "many" was used for effect and yes it was a stupid thing to say…

A few is like 3 over a number of years

many would be … many, dozens every year but thats not what we see

and fuck up means they had an incident they missed something

Hopefully they are alive to look back at what they missed, it could be as simple as we should have gone to the area and just rode the chair insted

my regular touring buddy did a lot of aviy work he said its different than the guides who learn avoid avalanches cuz they learned how/where to start them

Jan. 13, 2017, 4:34 p.m.
Posts: 14378
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

I walk around up on the Praire alone without the beacon on but its low risk, the side country is more likely to slide and we have kicked off small ones in there

Jan. 13, 2017, 5:12 p.m.
Posts: 1109
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Does having a beacon make you take risks that you wouldn't do otherwise?

Of course it does.

i'd disagree with that as a blanket statement too. you're probably correct though that there are some people that would think that way.

i know i certainly wouldn't and i strongly believe three sheets also wouldn't think like that.

context is everything

Jan. 13, 2017, 5:23 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 20, 2005

Well. If I didn't have a beacon on, I wouldn't go into avalanche terrain. Period.

When I wear a beacon, I do venture into avalanche terrain.

So yes, I take risks with my beacon that I wouldn't do otherwise.

You are all telling me, on 100% of your days, if you forgot your beacon, you would go anyway, or you are simply wearing them to make your touring partners happy?

Jan. 13, 2017, 5:32 p.m.
Posts: 18446
Joined: May 29, 2004

You are all telling me, on 100% of your days, if you forgot your beacon, you would go anyway, or you are simply wearing them to make your touring partners happy?

No thats not what we're saying.

I related above about how i stayed home today…furthermore my gear is at work and inbounds conditions arent worth it right now.

As I said before, my beacon is primarily to assist in finding you…my attitude towards safety does not allow for me to treat it as a tool for you to find me…

I find that if we treat our ppe as rescue tools instead of tools to allow others to find me,our attitudes change when it comes to respect for the decision making process.

fwiw i will not leave the parking lot with someone not carrying the proper ppe and demonstrated ability to use it….their airbag is not a rescue tool so i dont care about that.

Jan. 13, 2017, 5:44 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

fair, many was for effect.. I'm just trying to say that it and does happen to the best. Why limit yourself. Saying many was kind of stupid…

Unsure how many "Pro Guides" have passed away recently. Seems to be the customer gets killed. Ski patrol seems to have a higher mortality rate.

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 13, 2017, 5:46 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 20, 2005

and demonstrated ability to use it….their airbag is not a rescue tool so i dont care about that.

Why does it matter if they can use it?

In my mind, that matters because they need to know how to find you, in the slim chance something goes wrong… but the point is… there is a tiny chance something CAN go wrong, and when it happens, you want to get found. If they didn't know how to find you, or you didn't wear one, you wouldn't go out that day… Why? If something did go wrong, and they couldn't find you, you could potentially be buried and die…

By that logic, in my mind, we are all taking some extra degree of risk we normally wouldn't if we didn't have a key peace of safety gear with us.

Now… should that line of what we deem acceptable risk change with the more gear we add? No it should not, and it absolutely doesn't have to. The fact that you are having this debate shows that you don't think an airbag is a get out of jail free card… but like a beacon, it can absolutely increase your chance of survival.

The part that I don't understand is why people who have been touring for ages think "I don't need that." Though to be honest… I would guess that when beacons came out, people probably said something along the lines of:

Ill probably never use one due to the fact i dont put myself in situations where i might need one anymore…Ill stick to studying the snowpack and making thoughtful choices.

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:02 p.m.
Posts: 1109
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Well. If I didn't have a beacon on, I wouldn't go into avalanche terrain. Period.

When I wear a beacon, I do venture into avalanche terrain.

So yes, I take risks with my beacon that I wouldn't do otherwise.

You are all telling me, on 100% of your days, if you forgot your beacon, you would go anyway, or you are simply wearing them to make your touring partners happy?

nope, that's no what i'm saying and i don't think three sheets is either.

part of the issue was your comment that suggested people (three sheets in particular) take risks with gear that they wouldn't without gear. i'm sure that's true for some people, but i would guess that most of those people don't have proper avy training and are relying on gear as opposed to properly assessing the conditions.

for me the decision to go into avy terrain should not be based on gear but on the conditions and knowledge of the season up to that point. i don't get out nearly as many on here and the most of the time i go it's solo. so i have gone into avy terrain solo and without gear but i've been okay with that because i knew before i went out what the conditions were like, what the risk was and i mitigated my risk by making smart decisions for the terrain i had to cross. like three sheets i look at gear as a way to help other people first and me second. i would not want to be that guy standing at top of a slope with all the right gear and having people in my group buried at the bottom and not knowing what to do. i think if everyone had that attitude you'd see a lot less people getting into trouble. the gear is there to help you save someone else's life and that's a huge responsibility. if everyone has that attitude then at least you know there's a chance of survival if things go wrong.

at the end of the day there's only one person responsible for your safety and that's you. sometimes even smart people with the right training can get caught by someone else making bad decisions - but that's part of protecting yourself. knowing who you're with, what their abilities and knowledge level is like and knowing where they are in your group. tunnel creek is great example of good people with the right skills and knowledge still getting killed due to bad decisions.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjzT15-oQq0

ps - i hope i'm not coming off too preachy but since having done my course this year i've been a keener for knowledge and have been reading a ton of stuff.

for anyone else who interested in some technical reading here's a couple of good links.

http://schulich.ucalgary.ca/asarc/files/asarc/CT_25y.pdf

https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.avalancheassociation.ca/resource/resmgr/Standards_Docs/OGRS2014web.pdf

context is everything

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:03 p.m.
Posts: 18446
Joined: May 29, 2004

Im not entirely sure what you're debating here.

I've been fairly clear on my position here about this incident and my attitude towards safety. I personally feel that the proper education and on site assessment, air bags are not a necessity, rather an add on that some these days are using as their sole ppe resource. I'd rather see folks use that kind of money to take a course and buy a helmet (none were wearing one in the video) and stick to the basics of rescue and snow study equipment.

now….

I have to this point not commented on other aspects of this video but will say that i'm somewhat disappointed at the panicked response of his companions and leave it at that.

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:13 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 20, 2005

Im not entirely sure what you're debating here.

I've been fairly clear on my position here about this incident and my attitude towards safety. I personally feel that the proper education and on site assessment, air bags are not a necessity, rather an add on that some these days are using as their sole ppe resource. I'd rather see folks use that kind of money to take a course and buy a helmet (none were wearing one in the video) and stick to the basics of rescue and snow study equipment.

I 100% agree.

Education first, the basics 2nd, and if funds allow, an avi backpack.

My point was… I don't agree with people saying "why bother, I just make smart decisions." It's a poor way of looking at yet another piece of valuable safety equipment that could save a ton of lives… dismissing it otherwise seems silly.

Will some people use equipment in the wrong way? Of course they will, but that doesn't mean said equipment should be dismissed all together. I see it a lot and it does nothing to help progress the snow safety industry.

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:20 p.m.
Posts: 18446
Joined: May 29, 2004

I 100% agree.

Education first, the basics 2nd, and if funds allow, an avi backpack.

My point was… I don't agree with people saying "why bother, I just make smart decisions." It's a poor way of looking at yet another piece of valuable safety equipment that could save a ton of lives… dismissing it otherwise seems silly.

Will some people use equipment in the wrong way? Of course they will, but that doesn't mean said equipment should be dismissed all together. I see it a lot and it does nothing to help progress the snow safety industry.

lol….so we essentially agree.

the biggest problem here is how this is being broadcast by the media, as in he was saved by his pack,as if its THE way to survive an avalanche.

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:27 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 20, 2005

hah…

… are your surprised the media is yet again misreporting something they know nothing about?

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:30 p.m.
Posts: 18446
Joined: May 29, 2004

hah…

… are your surprised the media is yet again misreporting something they know nothing about?

So we have the opportunity to educate readers here at least….

Jan. 13, 2017, 6:39 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 20, 2005

If they've gotten this far… I'm sure they already know better! haha

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