This guy is worth a look...

thnx.

well written, better than I could have said it.

A strong industry helps with riders progressing the sport. Stronger industry increases the quality of the product while decreasing the costs involved. This in turn results in higher affordability which then results in more riders entering the sport. Now, drawing from a larger population base, there is a greater chance of accessing talent that may have not become a part of the sport due to monetary exclusion.

Soccer is a very popular sport that attracts a large talent base because you require very little equipment, therefore it is very accessible. This is why you see such a discrepancy in competition quality between the womens and the mens categories in a lot of the sports as well, as the male competition is drawing from a much larger population base. However, as the number of individuals participating increases, so does the level of competition due to increased access to talented athletes that may have not participated before.

Good athletes are good at many sports, irrespective of which sport they choose, therefore increasing access by decreasing the costs involved with participating by you riding and supporting the growth of the industry results in better quality riding.

This is about 12824890430934x times better an argument than "better shox = better riders". Definitely, if the sport can attract more people then it will progress faster. Now, I'm still not sure that stronger industry = more people. A high end bike costs MORE these days than it did 10 years ago, and while it is hundreds of times better, most of that is because our industry was retarded rather than because they were able to make leaps and bounds advancements.

Seriously, do I need to list the hundreds of design abortions that the MTB industry has foisted on people? Really, in terms of freeride or whatever, the bikes have been prettymuch there for 10+ years and the real "technology" advancement has been that of people finally realizing that Dangerous Dansitions simply aren't ok.

And sure, stronger industry = more advertisments, more events, more exposure… but to get back to what Cory said about bmx being fucked: it's only fucked if you're trying to make money from it. As a sport its fucking amazing. And there are so many better, more dedicated ramp/trails builders in bmx than there are "pro" mtb builders its crazy. Their shit doesn't need lift access because their shit is built better, tighter, with less energy loss through huge shox, flat landings, etc…

Anyway, there are lots of great things about the bicycle industry in general and I support it 100%. Even the mtb industry I think is worth working with (I mean, I make a living at it at the moment), I just don't think that a) me riding particularly is good for the industry, and b)that a strong industry = better riding. Might help a bit, but so do so many other factors that the mtb industry fucks up in so many ways.

And Cory, do you need to call me names in every post you make?

Can someone please explain how strong industry = riding progression?

You say the "better shox = better riders" argument sucks. That wasn't an argument I was making, and not one you asked for. You asked how a strong industry creates progression. I answered that with a simple example.

You say the "better shox = better riders" argument sucks. That wasn't an argument I was making, and not one you asked for. You asked how a strong industry creates progression. I answered that with a simple example.

Okay but there are a ton of counter-examples where the industry was just shooting itself in the foot. Remember "suspend the rider not the bike", etc. etc.? Or the 329803298023923 gussets trend? Or any number of ridiculous mistakes?

Sure bigger shox let people huck bigger ladder bridges to flat, but it didn't exactly push the progression of the sport.

Brian may be a dick cheese most of the time, but he is as integral to the team as anyone.

who's this brian guy everyone keeps talking about?

Sure bigger shox let people huck bigger ladder bridges to flat, but it didn't exactly push the progression of the sport.

Mostly lurker chiming in, here.

For the sake of discussion, I'm curious as to how you define "progression"? This is not trying to be flamebait, either - it's just such an amorphous term that a bit of extra explanation might help the dialogue.

Mostly lurker chiming in, here.

For the sake of discussion, I'm curious as to how you define "progression"? This is not trying to be flamebait, either - it's just such an amorphous term that a bit of extra explanation might help the dialogue.

Definitely a good call, I realize we're probably all talking past each other here because I never considered people like Bender (for whom huge shoxxx really did help) to be pushing the sport.

Definitely a good call, I realize we're probably all talking past each other here because I never considered people like Bender (for whom huge shoxxx really did help) to be pushing the sport.

You side stepped the question.

Lets hear you define "progression" in the sport of mtb.

What is god progression in mtb according to you?

Definitely a good call, I realize we're probably all talking past each other here because I never considered people like Bender (for whom huge shoxxx really did help) to be pushing the sport.

I extend the question to Sideshow, too. It's such a dicey subject that, as you said, people can all be talking past each other.

I have no horse in this race, but am just curious as to what it means to different people.

And Cory, do you need to call me names in every post you make?

This. for once

Sideshow, your jabs at B-Rye and bushleague argument skills are getting so old.
Not to mention the too-above-it-all-to-explain stance you always take.
Kudos to the guy who actually took your bullshit and shaped it into somthing that had sense.
Still I think LRon wins his point.. but not the thred. yet

Definitely a good call, I realize we're probably all talking past each other here because I never considered people like Bender (for whom huge shoxxx really did help) to be pushing the sport.

I think bender helped progress the sport a ton. Sure, his hucks lacked style and tricks, but he was the first mainstream rider to say "hey, we can go bigger than BMX, lets do it!"

Josh benders part in NWD 1 sold that movie for me and really got me hooked on the freeride/DH side of mountain bikes. In my decade in the sport, I've introduced numerous people into the sport. None of that would have happened argueably, if it wasn't for me thinking that Bender was cool back in the day.

That's the definition of progression of the industry.

-KT

I think bender helped progress the sport a ton. Sure, his hucks lacked style and tricks, but he was the first mainstream rider to say "hey, we can go bigger than BMX, lets do it!"

Josh benders part in NWD 1 sold that movie for me and really got me hooked on the freeride/DH side of mountain bikes. In my decade in the sport, I've introduced numerous people into the sport. None of that would have happened argueably, if it wasn't for me thinking that Bender was cool back in the day.

That's the definition of progression of the industry.

-KT

We're not talking about progression of the industry.

To be fair I thought Josh Bender was cool for about 5 minutes too.

You side stepped the question.

Lets hear you define "progression" in the sport of mtb.

What is god progression in mtb according to you?

I was defining by negation, it counts, sort of hehe.

Anyway, I guess I'll have a go for everyone to hack apart.

1. I think it's great that the many different kinds of riding bikes in the dirt are separating themselves. Love seeing people ride bikes that are good for what they do (though what they do might not be pushing tricks/drops/speed/etc.). Making non competition bikes like AM bikes is major progress for the sport.

2. I think that if someone is going to ride jumps and do tricks, then they should take advantage of the fact that bmx has already been there and done it. That means fuck bowlegged anything, fuck indiangivers, fuck riding big suspension bikes at the trails and ruining the transitions for everyone else, fuck tracking dirt through the skatepark, being aware of shitfootedness, etc. etc.

3. I think that in terms of going bigger and faster etc., the people who really push the sport aren't the Benders of the world, but those who figured out how to do things differently. For example, the people who figured out how to hit bigger drops with big gaps to keep from getting bucked. Eg. Romaniuk (despite his insistence on sticking his knees all over the place), Vories, and Wade.

4. Finally, I think that true progression in the sport would be for the focus to shift from the lifestyle surrounding the sport to the sport itself. That means ending the myth of Fox/Sombrio shorts making you a better rider, and stopping with the quick-cuts slow motion editing in every film, and buying a bike with rear suspension that doesn't need an acronym to describe it.

I'm not saying there's not room for pluralism in the sport, but you asked for my idea of what progression would be and there you have it.

Very well said Brian, I agree with every one of your points, especially this:

"I think that true progression in the sport would be for the focus to shift from the lifestyle surrounding the sport to the sport itself."

(although for me that's more of a pet peeve than anything)