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Who needs a budget?

March 24, 2017, 6:48 p.m.
Posts: 122
Joined: Nov. 30, 2010

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: grambo

We need a moderate leader of CPC for the next election.

It'll be O'Leary and we all know it. He is moderately entertaining though.

Trump Lite?!

March 24, 2017, 7:13 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Posted by: chupacabra

Why would you say "but Harper" and then post an article showing that Canadians and our debt has been an increasing problem during his entire tenure?  Are you suggesting that the overheated housing markets and high debt levels are the doing of the Liberals?  But Trudeau?

Back to taxation and growth, it isn't as simple as more tax less growth.  It depends on where the taxes go.  Increasing taxes for infrastructure, for example, increases growth.  It also matters who is getting taxed and at what amount.

I say 'but Harper' because even though it has been three years since a budget of his, those were (and generally are) the first words out of most liberal's mouths when you ask them about this budget.  Which is a segue into your second part....all that you said is somewhat true, but seeing as how this discussion is about this budget, none of those points were addressed.  You do know who these taxes are targeting - do you not?

Oh - and Maxime Bernier will edge in over O'Leary.

March 28, 2017, 1:19 p.m.
Posts: 11499
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: Zedbra

Posted by: chupacabra

Why would you say "but Harper" and then post an article showing that Canadians and our debt has been an increasing problem during his entire tenure?  Are you suggesting that the overheated housing markets and high debt levels are the doing of the Liberals?  But Trudeau?

Back to taxation and growth, it isn't as simple as more tax less growth.  It depends on where the taxes go.  Increasing taxes for infrastructure, for example, increases growth.  It also matters who is getting taxed and at what amount.

I say 'but Harper' because even though it has been three years since a budget of his, those were (and generally are) the first words out of most liberal's mouths when you ask them about this budget.  Which is a segue into your second part....all that you said is somewhat true, but seeing as how this discussion is about this budget, none of those points were addressed.  You do know who these taxes are targeting - do you not?

Oh - and Maxime Bernier will edge in over O'Leary.

Fair enough, but I think you will find the same applies to conservatives.  It's always the other guy.  When it comes to federal budgets I look at the taxes and what the government is going to do with them just like anyone else.  Sometimes I will vote for increasing my taxes, and I did so with the Liberals with eyes wide open.  The most dramatic of the increases was the end of income splitting since my wife is only working sporadically while our daughter is young.  I doubt anything in this budget will affect me as dramatically as axing that one Conservative program, but I voted for them anyway.  I am more concerned that the taxes are fair and that they are spent in areas that will make the economy more competitive in the future and I felt Harper did not do that.  He made decisions that would make hay while the sun shined and chose resource extraction as our main source of revenue into the future and he cut taxes, so to me, it was inevitable that resources would eventually let us down and taxes would have to be raised just to get things back on track.  On top of that, the reduced revenue that he did bring in was put toward questionable initiatives like boosting the prison capacity or F-35s (so shiny).

So, I like the fact that the Liberals are spending close to a billion over 5 years on innovation, but we will have to wait and see if it is effective.

March 28, 2017, 8:23 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Posted by: chupacabra

Fair enough, but I think you will find the same applies to conservatives.  It's always the other guy.  When it comes to federal budgets I look at the taxes and what the government is going to do with them just like anyone else.  Sometimes I will vote for increasing my taxes, and I did so with the Liberals with eyes wide open.  The most dramatic of the increases was the end of income splitting since my wife is only working sporadically while our daughter is young.  I doubt anything in this budget will affect me as dramatically as axing that one Conservative program, but I voted for them anyway.  I am more concerned that the taxes are fair and that they are spent in areas that will make the economy more competitive in the future and I felt Harper did not do that.  He made decisions that would make hay while the sun shined and chose resource extraction as our main source of revenue into the future and he cut taxes, so to me, it was inevitable that resources would eventually let us down and taxes would have to be raised just to get things back on track.  On top of that, the reduced revenue that he did bring in was put toward questionable initiatives like boosting the prison capacity or F-35s (so shiny).

So, I like the fact that the Liberals are spending close to a billion over 5 years on innovation, but we will have to wait and see if it is effective.

It's always the other guy to those that need to blame others for their own actions.  Harper created jobs.  You suggested that he invested heavy into oil - well, point out one thing in your house or everyday life that wasn't made or delivered using oil.  As an investor and businessman, you target a product that everyone uses - and Harper nailed that well.  JT on this budget aimed and nailed targeting those that still have jobs with more taxes, and more money to CRA to find more of your money.  If you think creating 1.3m jobs isn't setting out country to be more competitive for the future, why don;t you embellish what this budget is doing to make us competitive, in lieu of the international business society marking us for a recession just one week before the budget?  Notice your high-fiving 'but Harper' back-up boy switch isn't here to respond anymore?

Spending minimal money on defense is pittance to freedom - be glad it is only your money you part with.  If you don;t want to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

March 28, 2017, 9:12 p.m.
Posts: 1730
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Zedbra

It's always the other guy to those that need to blame others for their own actions.

Non sequitur

Harper created jobs.  

Harper also lost jobs

You suggested that he invested heavy into oil - well, point out one thing in your house or everyday life that wasn't made or delivered using oil.  As an investor and businessman, you target a product that everyone uses - and Harper nailed that well.  

Some truth there, but it's not smart to focus on one sector especially if it's volatile - a downturn can have significant repercussions in that case. How's Alberta now? The key to a healthy economy is diversification and developing new industries/markets where possible. 

JT on this budget aimed and nailed targeting those that still have jobs with more taxes, and more money to CRA to find more of your money.  If you think creating 1.3m jobs isn't setting out country to be more competitive for the future, why don;t you embellish what this budget is doing to make us competitive, in lieu of the international business society marking us for a recession just one week before the budget?  Notice your high-fiving 'but Harper' back-up boy switch isn't here to respond anymore?

Your argument would be more sound if you weren't constantly trying to put Harper on a pedestal. 

Spending minimal money on defense is pittance to freedom - be glad it is only your money you part with.  If you don;t want to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

Same can be said of Harper and previous governments as well.

March 28, 2017, 10:22 p.m.
Posts: 1302
Joined: March 18, 2017

Does the head of state create jobs with a waving of a "jobs" wand or by merely pointing ones finger?  Asking for a friend.

March 28, 2017, 10:26 p.m.
Posts: 11911
Joined: June 4, 2008

Conservatives and Liberals are fucking awful.

March 29, 2017, 7:01 a.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Zedbra

It's always the other guy to those that need to blame others for their own actions.

Non sequitur

Harper created jobs.

Harper also lost jobs

You suggested that he invested heavy into oil - well, point out one thing in your house or everyday life that wasn't made or delivered using oil. As an investor and businessman, you target a product that everyone uses - and Harper nailed that well.

Some truth there, but it's not smart to focus on one sector especially if it's volatile - a downturn can have significant repercussions in that case. How's Alberta now? The key to a healthy economy is diversification and developing new industries/markets where possible.

JT on this budget aimed and nailed targeting those that still have jobs with more taxes, and more money to CRA to find more of your money. If you think creating 1.3m jobs isn't setting out country to be more competitive for the future, why don;t you embellish what this budget is doing to make us competitive, in lieu of the international business society marking us for a recession just one week before the budget? Notice your high-fiving 'but Harper' back-up boy switch isn't here to respond anymore?

Your argument would be more sound if you weren't constantly trying to put Harper on a pedestal.

Spending minimal money on defense is pittance to freedom - be glad it is only your money you part with. If you don;t want to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

Same can be said of Harper and previous governments as well.

So, rebuttal facts to 'but Harper' are now putting him on a pedestal when the collective brain power can only put him down rather than discuss the poor performance of Mr Selfie? Like what you just did. Got it.

Care to embellish on your opinions of this budget without mentioning the government from 3 years ago? Is going billions into deficit in order to tax the 'middle class' and holding onto a balooning real estate market, in the face of the international monetary eyes saying doing those very actions red lights us for a potential recession, the right course to thrust Canada towards prosperous times in the face of a potential recession?

Yes, and they all suck - I can agree to that, Red.


 Last edited by: Zedbra on March 29, 2017, 7:02 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 29, 2017, 8:44 a.m.
Posts: 1730
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Zedbra

So, rebuttal facts to 'but Harper' are now putting him on a pedestal when the collective brain power can only put him down rather than discuss the poor performance of Mr Selfie? Like what you just did. Got it.

Care to embellish on your opinions of this budget without mentioning the government from 3 years ago? Is going billions into deficit in order to tax the 'middle class' and holding onto a balooning real estate market, in the face of the international monetary eyes saying doing those very actions red lights us for a potential recession, the right course to thrust Canada towards prosperous times in the face of a potential recession?

Yes, and they all suck - I can agree to that, Red.

Not sure why you keep saying three years, Trudeau's been in charge for less than half of that - 16 months so far.

I called it putting Harper on a pedestal because that's how you frame your responses and questions.  Your general style is to attack Trudeau/Liberals and defend Harper/Conservatives with one sided debate. If people bring up opposing info to balance your claims then you turn that into "Harper bashing". When you talk about the Liberal deficit like it's the worst thing since sliced bread and them someone else points out the Conservatives ran deficits too, including the highest ever, you turn that into "Harper bashing". That is simply just adding balance to the debate. People aren't tired of hearing about out talking about government. but I suspect some are tired of the one-sided way you always seem to go about that process.

In terms of the current budget there are a number of things I'm not happy with and the shine is coming off this Liberal government very quickly for me. If they continue on the current trajectory I won't see myself supporting them in the next election. The way the Conservatives are going though with their leadership (or better, lack of leadership) candidates I don't see  myself supporting them either.

Looking at your article link:

  • deficit is down this year, will be up next year and then down significantly the year after

  • scrapping CSB makes sense at this point considering interest rates. who even buys them anymore? it probably costs more to run the program than any sort of profits that can be realized.

  • higher taxes on tobacco and alcohol are more good than bad in my eye

  • money for affordable housing is a good thing

  • CRA has been hamstrung due to cuts for years, part of the reason nothing's been done about the real estate debacle is they simply don't have enough auditors or budget to deal with it.

  • new daycare spaces are good and is related to housing imo

  • student loan stuff is good but they've cut tax credits for students which is bad

  • adding some bureaucracy which is not good imo, I question how effectively that money will be spent.

So looking at the info in your link it's not all doom and gloom as you stated from the beginning.

March 29, 2017, 10:23 a.m.
Posts: 11499
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: Zedbra

It's always the other guy to those that need to blame others for their own actions.  Harper created jobs.  You suggested that he invested heavy into oil - well, point out one thing in your house or everyday life that wasn't made or delivered using oil.  As an investor and businessman, you target a product that everyone uses - and Harper nailed that well.  JT on this budget aimed and nailed targeting those that still have jobs with more taxes, and more money to CRA to find more of your money.  If you think creating 1.3m jobs isn't setting out country to be more competitive for the future, why don;t you embellish what this budget is doing to make us competitive, in lieu of the international business society marking us for a recession just one week before the budget?  Notice your high-fiving 'but Harper' back-up boy switch isn't here to respond anymore?

Spending minimal money on defense is pittance to freedom - be glad it is only your money you part with.  If you don;t want to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

Our Prime Minister is neither an investor or a businessman, nor should he/she be.  If you want to compare their duties they are more like a parent where you have to think long term and for their overall well-being.  This is the reality that is currently hitting Trump in the face (apparently it's not all about deals... who knew).  The fact that everything uses oil isn't a reason to keep double down on it BTW.  200 years ago in America a lot of products were made/built by slaves and a good businessman would invest in such a reliable and inexpensive form of labour, but not a good human.

Creating jobs (a term coming from a conservative cracks me up by the way) in oil and gas does not set up Canada for a future where oil and gas are in decline.  We need to be ahead of the curve with what is coming next.  America was first to the oil and gas over a hundred years ago (with the help of directed assistance from the American tax payer) and they still hold that position.  The face of energy is changing and I want Canada to be on top of this obvious trend, whether it is solar, wind or nuclear.  Biotech is going to recreate medicine, I want our Universities to be the place where to world looks for those answers just like American universities did with the powers of the internet and computing.  AI, space exploration.  Basically anything that Elon Musk is up to, lol.  

Oil and gas extraction is going to become our ball and chain if that is where we keep focusing all of our energy, but critics like yourself shit on Trudeau when he says "We can't shut down the oilsands tomorrow. We need to phase them out. We need to manage the transition off of our dependence on fossil fuels."  This is just the reality, not Trudeau being out of touch, and a lot of people in Alberta are feeling this reality.  I am sure they would love to see a new horizon for future jobs.  I do a lot of business in Alberta and I certainly would like to see a plan for this transition. 

The recession that is being called for in Canada is based on our level of debt, which as I know you will agree with has been building for a long time and throughout Harper's tenure, so that can't be pinned on the Liberals and you know it.

As for the troops, how am I not standing behind them, and as someone that doesn't want to pay more taxes how are you standing behind them?  My brother is ex Air Force, my cousin currently serves and I support them 100%.  In fact, saying no to the F-35 program is supporting the troops.  Don't get me wrong, they look cool as F, and as a guy who was obsessed with fighter jets as a kid these are a dream come true... if they work as planned and if the ones we were going to get had all the features.  The Liberals plan to purchase super hornets and then look for a replacement to the F-18 in 2018 is a far better plan and saves us money (conservatives like that don't they?).  I never said I don't want to spend on our military.  Let's equip them the best we can with what is known to actually work in the environments they find themselves today, and let's make sure we have the money to do so through taxation.

March 29, 2017, 2:03 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Zedbra

So, rebuttal facts to 'but Harper' are now putting him on a pedestal when the collective brain power can only put him down rather than discuss the poor performance of Mr Selfie? Like what you just did. Got it.

Care to embellish on your opinions of this budget without mentioning the government from 3 years ago? Is going billions into deficit in order to tax the 'middle class' and holding onto a balooning real estate market, in the face of the international monetary eyes saying doing those very actions red lights us for a potential recession, the right course to thrust Canada towards prosperous times in the face of a potential recession?

Yes, and they all suck - I can agree to that, Red.

Not sure why you keep saying three years, Trudeau's been in charge for less than half of that - 16 months so far.

I called it putting Harper on a pedestal because that's how you frame your responses and questions. Your general style is to attack Trudeau/Liberals and defend Harper/Conservatives with one sided debate. If people bring up opposing info to balance your claims then you turn that into "Harper bashing". When you talk about the Liberal deficit like it's the worst thing since sliced bread and them someone else points out the Conservatives ran deficits too, including the highest ever, you turn that into "Harper bashing". That is simply just adding balance to the debate. People aren't tired of hearing about out talking about government. but I suspect some are tired of the one-sided way you always seem to go about that process.

In terms of the current budget there are a number of things I'm not happy with and the shine is coming off this Liberal government very quickly for me. If they continue on the current trajectory I won't see myself supporting them in the next election. The way the Conservatives are going though with their leadership (or better, lack of leadership) candidates I don't see myself supporting them either.

Looking at your article link:

  • deficit is down this year, will be up next year and then down significantly the year after

  • scrapping CSB makes sense at this point considering interest rates. who even buys them anymore? it probably costs more to run the program than any sort of profits that can be realized.

  • higher taxes on tobacco and alcohol are more good than bad in my eye

  • money for affordable housing is a good thing

  • CRA has been hamstrung due to cuts for years, part of the reason nothing's been done about the real estate debacle is they simply don't have enough auditors or budget to deal with it.

  • new daycare spaces are good and is related to housing imo

  • student loan stuff is good but they've cut tax credits for students which is bad

  • adding some bureaucracy which is not good imo, I question how effectively that money will be spent.

So looking at the info in your link it's not all doom and gloom as you stated from the beginning.

Those were only some of the highlights - I've managed to saunter through about the first 90 pages of the budget and I haven't come across massive job creations to increase our GDP and all roads lead to taxing real estate, which has been warned is dangerously close to popping n the international community's investment eyes.

Did you read at all the BIS report, that has been able to predict the US economic collapse and the UK's as well? Here is just a little bit for us to all ponder:

<u>They’ve identified the disease of debt, but they’re mum on the cure as well as where all this speculative credit is coming from.</u>

<u>The Bank of Canada revealed that Canadians have taken on $2 trillion dollars in consumer debt. And while large numbers like these are thrown around a lot in the age of low interest rates, deficit spending and quantitive easing, it helps to have some perspective. It takes 31,709 years to count to one trillion. Now multiply that by two.</u>

<u>71.6% of that $2 trillion consumer debt is in mortgages. The BIS warns that large debt binges like this are almost always followed by a proportional recession. Thus, Canada has been flagged for bad times in 2018.</u>


 Last edited by: Zedbra on March 29, 2017, 2:05 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 29, 2017, 2:05 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Man this new forum blows.  So - trending on $2 trillion in personal debt and climbing, almost all from real estate.  We have 36 million people and much less own property.  Despite the blame on the oil 'collapse' it is selling at an all time high - funny how that works.  Anyways, you can't tax money people don;t have for long - ask Greece how that worked out for them.


 Last edited by: Zedbra on March 29, 2017, 2:08 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 29, 2017, 4:26 p.m.
Posts: 16695
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: Zedbra

Anyways, you can't tax money people don;t have for long - ask Greece how that worked out for them.

Oh come on now.  You know perfectly well that the problems with Greece didn't start from lack of tax revenues from the unemployed.  It started with the very well and gainfully employed turning cheating on their tax returns into a national sport.  Filing a falsified return in Greece was endemic.

March 29, 2017, 5:11 p.m.
Posts: 13934
Joined: March 15, 2003

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: Zedbra

Anyways, you can't tax money people don;t have for long - ask Greece how that worked out for them.

Oh come on now. You know perfectly well that the problems with Greece didn't start from lack of tax revenues from the unemployed. It started with the very well and gainfully employed turning cheating on their tax returns into a national sport. Filing a falsified return in Greece was endemic.

Is that a KenN joke? People here are cheating where they can because they give enough as it is to the Feds - I paid over $51k in federal income tax alone last year. Now the CRA is getting another half a billion to scratch out more. Greece went down the same road we are traveling

<font color="#4a4a4a" face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">Debt in these countries has become a burden not because of government profligacy but because each enjoyed a decade of low interest rates and was then hit by the financial crisis. Easy credit fuelled debt in households and the financial sector.</span></font>

<span style="color: rgb(74, 74, 74); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"></span>


 Last edited by: Zedbra on March 29, 2017, 5:12 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 30, 2017, 4 p.m.
Posts: 11499
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: Zedbra

Is that a KenN joke? People here are cheating where they can because they give enough as it is to the Feds - I paid over $51k in federal income tax alone last year. Now the CRA is getting another half a billion to scratch out more. Greece went down the same road we are traveling

C'mon man, are you trying to not make sense? Greece could have used an influx of cash to combat tax evasion, but they let it happen unchecked. Greece is just a dog whistle. We have almost nothing in common.

<span style="color: rgb(64, 64, 64); font-family: Georgia, Cambria, &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, Times, serif; font-size: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);">The 2017 federal budget pledged $523.9 million over the next five years to the Canada Revenue Agency to prevent tax evasion and improve tax compliance and has targeted both wealthy individuals and multinational corporations.</span>

Regular Joe's, even guys that pay 51K in federal income tax, are not a problem in Canada. Our cheats are on the top end, way over your pay scale, and have been getting away with it for years. The Panama papers should have opened your eyes to this epic problem. This program could yield several times that number in additional taxes. So if you are OK with paying your tax bill while Johnny "trust fund" McDouchebag skirts the rules and pays jack all then I can see why you would be against this, but that is not the vibe I get when you talk about taxes.

EDIT:  Why can't I ever get rid of these embedded tags in my quotes????


 Last edited by: chupacabra on March 30, 2017, 4:03 p.m., edited 2 times in total.

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