New posts

War with Alberta

Feb. 8, 2018, 5:45 p.m.
Posts: 2285
Joined: Feb. 5, 2005

I'll let Rick Mercer tell you all why CANADIANS (not Albertans, not British Columbians, and not Vancouverites) should support this pipeline. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV9ZtqyQ5J4

Feb. 8, 2018, 10:05 p.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

I'm a fan of Rick's rants, but he's missed the point entirely on this one.  Also, it's almost two years old, FYI.

Feb. 9, 2018, 5:49 a.m.
Posts: 32
Joined: Oct. 23, 2003

Im not a big naysayer for pipelines, but other than a brief construction boom what does BC actually stand to gain for bearing all the risks?

I mean I guess the pipeline could spill in alberta but who cares those guys love oil..

Feb. 9, 2018, 7:33 a.m.
Posts: 11138
Joined: June 4, 2008

Judging by the positions of those pro-pipeline, I believe they're trying to say it's our privilege of having a Houston based company net the majority of the profits while we're left with paying for any spills.

Said like that, it really is a win-win.

Feb. 9, 2018, 9:02 a.m.
Posts: 10227
Joined: June 29, 2006

I would be more pro-pipeline if I thought we had many years ahead of prosperous oil production, but it is hard to cheer for the demise of fossil fuels, especially the messy tar sands extraction, while at the same time supporting pipelines that will take years to build.  We either do all we can to mitigate climate change, or we build pipelines.  We can't do both.

Alberta needs to come to terms with the slow (possibly fast) demise of their oil industry.  It sucks for Notley that she is left holding the bag when the Conservatives should have been prepping for this reality decades ago, but here they are.

Feb. 9, 2018, 9:22 a.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

I would be more pro-pipeline if I thought we had many years ahead of prosperous oil production, but it is hard to cheer for the demise of fossil fuels, especially the messy tar sands extraction, while at the same time supporting pipelines that will take years to build. We either do all we can to mitigate climate change, or we build pipelines. We can't do both.

Alberta needs to come to terms with the slow (possibly fast) demise of their oil industry. It sucks for Notley that she is left holding the bag when the Conservatives should have been prepping for this reality decades ago, but here they are.

This ... so much this.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/13/16293258/ev-revolution

China is 30% of the world's passenger car market, and they are aggressively phasing out gas and diesel cars. Many other western countries have announced bans on gas an diesel car sales over then next 15-20 years. India ... fucking INDIA ... the second largest market for passenger cars, is phasing out gas and diesel by 2030. Given that 50% of oil is consumed by road traffic, it's hard to argue for continued expansion of the oil distribution infrastructure. A megaproject like KM pipeline will likely need 20+ years at almost full utilization to simply pay for the cost to build it. I don't think they'll ever see that. By the time China and India make significant swings to EV fleets, oil price will plummet due to oversupply, and the first oil to be financially unfeasible will be Alberta tar.

Last year, the Dutch parliament voted through a motion to end all gas and diesel car sales by 2025 (it still has to go through the Dutch senate).

In June, India announced that it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2030.

In June, Norway agreed to end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2025. (Norway leads the world in EVs — almost 40 percent of its newly registered vehicles were hybrid, electric, or hydrogen in 2017.)

In July, France announced it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2040.

In July, Britain announced it would end sales of gas and diesel cars by 2040.

In August, German Chancellor Angela Merkel hinted that her country would follow suit. "I cannot name an exact year yet,” she said, “but the approach is right, because if we quickly invest in more charging infrastructure and technology for electric cars, a general changeover will be structurally possible."

This month, the Scottish government announced it would phase out gas and diesel cars by 2032.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/307194/top-oil-consuming-sectors-worldwide/

Anyone who thinks the KM2 pipeline will eventually make money has some serious blinders on.


 Last edited by: KenN on Feb. 9, 2018, 9:24 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Feb. 9, 2018, 9:41 a.m.
Posts: 3597
Joined: Sept. 27, 2004

Posted by: chupacabra

I would be more pro-pipeline if I thought we had many years ahead of prosperous oil production, but it is hard to cheer for the demise of fossil fuels, especially the messy tar sands extraction, while at the same time supporting pipelines that will take years to build.  We either do all we can to mitigate climate change, or we build pipelines.  We can't do both.

Alberta needs to come to terms with the slow (possibly fast) demise of their oil industry.  It sucks for Notley that she is left holding the bag when the Conservatives should have been prepping for this reality decades ago, but here they are.

Well said, and exactly the way I see it as well.

Feb. 9, 2018, 9:53 a.m.
Posts: 222
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

This was a fun read.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/could-alberta-bring-b-c-to-its-knees-by-shutting-off-the-oil

The Keystone was halted, Amazon said no to 2nd HQ in Calgary. Kinda looks like they are going to panic mode, and picking on us now.

I want Canada to prosper but I'm torn on the new pipeline. Looks like it will be tied up in the courts for years, First Nations leading the charge.

On the upside if they really wanna keep their money out of BC as they are threatening. We wont be seeing so many Ed Hardy wearing, Nickleback listening, useless giant lifted truck driving, Albertans at our fine lake resort towns this summer. Ya right.


 Last edited by: bux-bux on Feb. 9, 2018, 10:07 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Feb. 9, 2018, 10:10 a.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Meh.  I've been driving EV exclusively for 4 years.  Bring on the gas price hike!

Feb. 9, 2018, 12:45 p.m.
Posts: 10227
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: KenN

Meh.  I've been driving EV exclusively for 4 years.  Bring on the gas price hike!

How much does your car cost per km?  I commute between Burnaby and Squamish in an old Maxima.  It is not cheap on fuel but it was cheap to buy and I didn't want to rack miles up on a new car.  It is closing in on 200,000 KM so a "new" car is on the horizon.  Between the fuel savings and rebates, it might be a good time to pull the trigger on an electric.

Feb. 9, 2018, 1:40 p.m.
Posts: 7
Joined: Jan. 21, 2013

Posted by: chupacabra

Alberta needs to come to terms with the slow (possibly fast) demise of their oil industry.  It sucks for Notley that she is left holding the bag when the Conservatives should have been prepping for this reality decades ago, but here they are.

About 50% of oil that's refined becomes gasoline. Beyond that, there are roughly equal parts for both other oil products and diesel/heating oil. Even if demand was reduced by half for gasoline, there are still lots of other uses for oil. Even if we stop burning gas and diesel in cars overnight, hybrid batteries need to come from somewhere. All the plastic stuff in our homes needs to come from somewhere too.

Feb. 9, 2018, 1:55 p.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

How much does your car cost per km?  I commute between Burnaby and Squamish in an old Maxima.  It is not cheap on fuel but it was cheap to buy and I didn't want to rack miles up on a new car.  It is closing in on 200,000 KM so a "new" car is on the horizon.  Between the fuel savings and rebates, it might be a good time to pull the trigger on an electric.

I run about 220 wh/km in summer, 240 wh/km in winter.  That's about 4.5 km/kwh summer;4.2 km/kwh winter.  Simple math using your hydro rate from there.  So worst case, in winter at BC Hydro step 2 rates (12.87 cents/kwh plus 5% delivery charge), it's going to cost you just over 3 cents per kilometer driven, or $3 per hundred km.  Compare to a reasonably efficient gas car at, say 6 litres/100 km efficiency, using $1.40 per litre you're looking at $8.40/100 km.

Factor in that about 1/2 my charging is at free public chargers and the cost to operate plummets.

That would be cost of fuel/energy only.  With the EV there's no oil changes, tune-ups etc. etc.  I got an annual maintenance program for mine, but when it runs out this year, I'll probably only bring it in every second year for service.

If you're serious about trying it out, maybe check out North Shore Kia - their used car group is really keen on the EV market and they have some used 2015 Nissan Leafs for around the $20k mark.  For that price, you could see if it works for a summer, then sell it at minimal loss if it doesn't work out.

For your commute, the Leaf would work one way, but would be tight for the round trip.  You'd need to find charging at/near work (or even an available outlet).  For longer range options that are not crazy expensive, Chev Bolt, the new 2018 Leaf (looks much nicer ... honest!) or wait until the Tesla 3 gets to Canada.

Feb. 9, 2018, 2:03 p.m.
Posts: 11138
Joined: June 4, 2008

What's the highest amp circuit you can use to charge EV's? And does recharge time scale linearly from 15?


 Last edited by: ReductiMat on Feb. 9, 2018, 2:04 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Feb. 9, 2018, 2:17 p.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

For most EVs 240 at 30 amps is max, for Tesla, depends on model and options - but at least 40 amps at 240, some have a dual charger that allows 80 amps. Charging at 120V/15A is usually fairly inefficient so there's some heat loss, so charging at higher voltage/current will actually be more efficient - so slightly better than linear.

At my previous house, I installed a stove outlet in the garage (14-50 form factor), so got 240/40 charging no problem.  Never had a situation where I couldn't fully charge overnight.  At the new place, I'm stuck with a 5-15 outlet, so only 120V charging.  It works, but I have to charge at work to keep the car topped.

Almost all EVs have a DC fast charge option that allows for 50 kW charging rate at about 450 volts DC.


 Last edited by: KenN on Feb. 9, 2018, 2:20 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Feb. 9, 2018, 2:23 p.m.
Posts: 16163
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: mrbrett

About 50% of oil that's refined becomes gasoline. Beyond that, there are roughly equal parts for both other oil products and diesel/heating oil. Even if demand was reduced by half for gasoline, there are still lots of other uses for oil. Even if we stop burning gas and diesel in cars overnight, hybrid batteries need to come from somewhere. All the plastic stuff in our homes needs to come from somewhere too.

Yes, but if total worldwide oil use is cut by 50%, then the first oil to be cut out of the picture will be the hardest to refine, dirtiest and most expensive to mine, tar sands goop. Thus, no further justification for KM2 pipeline to support increased shipments.

And, at the same time, the world might even stand a chance of meeting CO2 reduction goals.


 Last edited by: KenN on Feb. 9, 2018, 2:24 p.m., edited 1 time in total.

Forum jump: