Unidentified Arial Phenomena (UAPs)

Posted by: syncro

if we're going to seriously consider alien craft that have the capacity to move in a way that defies physics as we understand it 

so that's a fundamental disagreement until actual evidence is put forward to support it.  grainy videos are not proof of some type of alien craft defying physics.  

this is core to where Chup and I were nattering back and forth earlier in this thread.  I am skeptical that these videos are anything other then lens aberrations and other such phenomenon, or simply "we don't know what they are".  There is no hard evidence of physics breaking craft at the root of any grainy video.  

I think Chup and I have come to a detente of until said credible evidence is provided, it's obviously witchcraft.

But isn't a big part of the spirit of this thread to throw the doors open and consider the unknown? I see this as a thought exercise, not necessarily a discussion rooted in the mechanics of the universe as we currently understand it.

But isn't a big part of the spirit of this thread to throw the doors open and consider the unknown? I see this as a thought exercise, not necessarily a discussion rooted in the mechanics of the universe as we currently understand it.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: switch

Posted by: syncro

...we tend to view things from one perspective, our own...

Would an alien not do the same?  

Moving mass at high speeds takes an incredible amount of energy.  Even at the LHR a huge amount of energy is required just to get some protons moving near light speed.

Probably.

You're missing my point tho switch. An alien lifeform may have some sort of tech that allows them to transport across vast distances without an incredible amount of energy. They may be playing with a different set of physics that we have yet to discover. For example maybe they have discovered a way to fold space/time...

And your missing my point.  We have a pretty good understanding about space and time.

Folding space enough to significantly shorten distances would take energies greater than a lot of stars produce in their lifetime.  That's a fair bit give that our sun burns through about 600 million tons of hydrogen every second.

Extraordinary claims for extraordinary evidence.  So far we've had nothing close to evidence that is even worth considering.

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: syncro

if we're going to seriously consider alien craft that have the capacity to move in a way that defies physics as we understand it 

so that's a fundamental disagreement until actual evidence is put forward to support it.  grainy videos are not proof of some type of alien craft defying physics.  

Agreed.  Might as well have discussions on bigfoot or religion.

Posted by: syncro

But isn't a big part of the spirit of this thread to throw the doors open and consider the unknown? I see this as a thought exercise, not necessarily a discussion rooted in the mechanics of the universe as we currently understand it.

If it's not rooted in the known, or the evidence based, then the thought experiment is Science Fiction.  It's a great genre.

Well I’m treating this thread as more sci-fi than reality.

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Is it me, or is Syncro experiencing life as a 20 year old University Dorm student these days?  

*passes bong*  "Bro.  They could like fold space and time like paper, and like travel the universe via thought". 

*passes bong back*  "Brooooo.... that's deep bro."

;)    ;)   ;)

I swear this was nightly stuff 25 years ago.

Is there ever really a reason to stop thinking about this stuff?

Posted by: switch

And your missing my point.  We have a pretty good understanding about space and time.

Folding space enough to significantly shorten distances would take energies greater than a lot of stars produce in their lifetime.  That's a fair bit give that our sun burns through about 600 million tons of hydrogen every second.

Extraordinary claims for extraordinary evidence.  So far we've had nothing close to evidence that is even worth considering.

We have a pretty good understanding of space and time?  We don't even know what gravity is.  We understand a lot of the math, but nobody knows what it is.  Same with dark matter and dark energy.  We assume they exist because our math doesn't explain what we can see.  I think it might be a bit premature to think we have this physics thing nailed.  

Besides, Syncro didn't make an extraordinary claim, he asked a question.

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: syncro

But isn't a big part of the spirit of this thread to throw the doors open and consider the unknown? I see this as a thought exercise, not necessarily a discussion rooted in the mechanics of the universe as we currently understand it.

If it's not rooted in the known, or the evidence based, then the thought experiment is Science Fiction.  It's a great genre.

Couldn't it be a hypothesis?  Relativity started as a thought experiment that was neither known or proven.  Maybe Einstein should have published his theory in a novel.  :)  

As usual you and Switch missed the point.  Syncro wasn't suggesting that FTL was possible, he asked what aliens might do if they could travel through the galaxy.

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: syncro

But isn't a big part of the spirit of this thread to throw the doors open and consider the unknown? I see this as a thought exercise, not necessarily a discussion rooted in the mechanics of the universe as we currently understand it.

If it's not rooted in the known, or the evidence based, then the thought experiment is Science Fiction. It's a great genre.

Couldn't it be a hypothesis? Relativity started as a thought experiment that was neither known or proven.

In as much as “Its witches riding Unicorns” is a hypothesis.

You can’t disprove a negative, but there is no real evidence for proving Aliens with FTL capabilities. So no, at this point with no actual evidence of space-time being folded is “it’s aliens” a real hypothesis.

Posted by: chupacabra

We have a pretty good understanding of space and time?  We don't even know what gravity is.  We understand a lot of the math, but nobody knows what it is.  Same with dark matter and dark energy.  We assume they exist because our math doesn't explain what we can see.  I think it might be a bit premature to think we have this physics thing nailed. 

We've known what gravity is since Einstein's theory of general relativity and that knowledge is used all the time.  The math is just a description of it's effects.

The confusion for most is that they believe gravity to be one of four fundamental forces along with weak nuclear, strong nuclear, and electromagnetism. The latter the have gauge bosons (gluons, W/Z bosons, photos) that are their force carriers, and most believe that gravity has a force carrier called the graviton. This is not the case as gravity is curvature of spacetime and use not meditated by a force carrier.

As for the time/space, Einstein's theory of special relativity explains it and, with general relativity, has been thoroughly and successfully tested/verified for a hundred years.

Dark matter and energy - just more on the things of the lists to be explained.

Posted by: switch

And your missing my point.  We have a pretty good understanding about space and time.

Folding space enough to significantly shorten distances would take energies greater than a lot of stars produce in their lifetime.  That's a fair bit give that our sun burns through about 600 million tons of hydrogen every second.

Extraordinary claims for extraordinary evidence.  So far we've had nothing close to evidence that is even worth considering.

No I'm not missing your point, I know exactly what it is. The issue is that I'm talking about something different than you are. I posed a what if question that is not bounded by the realities of our universe as we know them. If there is evidence of some sort of vehicle that can move in a manner that defies physics, or at least defies the capability of any vehicle that we know about, then I think we have to consider the possibility that we simply may not know enough about out universe yet in order to be able to fully explain it. I totally get your point, but that is not what I am addressing.  

Now if you want to talk to me about whether I do believe in the evidence that's been presented so far then that's a different discussion. But as presented, my last few comments are not about that.

My original question was that if aliens are here and are watching us, what might they be thinking about us. Are we worthy of contact?