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Trump.

March 19, 2020, 6:27 p.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: ReductiMat

It's important we keep our countries white.

source? or is this just another "I read it on the internet so it must be true" factoid of the week?

March 19, 2020, 8:26 p.m.
Posts: 33324
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

...in 1977, in which Biden, then a U.S. senator representing Delaware, allegedly expressed fear that desegregation, if not done in an “orderly” way, could result in his children growing up in “a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point".

Verified as true on Snopes - this is what they list as the quote:

Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this.


 Last edited by: switch on March 19, 2020, 8:28 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 19, 2020, 8:28 p.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: switch

...in 1977, in which Biden, then a U.S. senator representing Delaware, allegedly expressed fear that desegregation, if not done in an “orderly” way, could result in his children growing up in “a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point".

Verified as true on Snopes.

I'd like to see the whole passage and take that into context before laying down any sort of judgement. Nevermind that a lot can happen in 40 plus years.

edit - just read the passage that was take from and unfortunately the follow up words after that last statement are missing. too much grey imo to call it one way or the other.


 Last edited by: syncro on March 19, 2020, 8:50 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 19, 2020, 9:11 p.m.
Posts: 11398
Joined: June 4, 2008

Posted by: chupacabra

  • Again, you overestimate the power of the DNC.
  • You are also advocating the very thing that every Bernie bro has whined about since 2016 and that is for the DNC to pick a favourite.
  • I don't remember praising the DNC anyway, I just asked a simple question.
  • How do you see a progressive using the power of the presidency as a bully pulpit to effect change?

  • You and Tungsten are the first to tell us all that the media is controlled by the vultures of capitalism.

  • If you are right then they will fight that message every step of the way.

  • They will make it impossible for centrist democrats to support any of it by destroying their re-elections.

  • And when Bernie or whoever is in charge can't achieve their goals they will blame him for the mess they created by hampering his efforts just like they did to Obama with the crippled ACA.

  • Obama had his faults but he spent 8 years with one hand tied behind his back trying to work with people that desperately wanted him to fail. Bernie would have that times 10.

You guys want to go all-in with a shitty hand or just fold if the cards said dumb shit 40 years ago. I want to play the cards that are dealt.

  • Again, you underestimate the power of the DNC.
  • What am I advocating for?
  • Who said you were praising the DNC?
  • The same way it's being used today.  The message is the message and if peoples faces are constantly confronted with it change can come.
  • Media control has been talked about for over fifty years, with incontrovertible proof, yet people still convince themselves they're OK and they're looking after us.
  • They are doing that now, see MSNBC, Newsweek, CNN to name but a few.

  • You're right, we shouldn't be allowed to vote and just let the donor class bequeath power like the kid-fiddlers do when a pope dies.

  • The only change Obama brought was more surveillance on its citizenry and more drone strikes than Bush.

My message is clear, Biden is a fractional change from Trump.  120 year old and unpatented drugs will still be ten times the cost of the same drug in other developed countries, drone strikes will still be killing tens of thousands a year abroad, people will still be slaves to their work for fear of losing health insurance, prisons will remain private and incentivized to create more criminals and wealth inequality will still spiral out of control.

If I could find a way to bet against the USA over a fifteen year time span I would put a lot of money on it.

March 19, 2020, 9:41 p.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: ReductiMat

If I could find a way to bet against the USA over a fifteen year time span I would put a lot of money on it.

did you listen to that podcast i posted? with then pandemic the USA may become insolvent in as little as 5-7 years.

March 19, 2020, 10:05 p.m.
Posts: 2097
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: chupacabra

Again, you overestimate the power of the DNC.

https://twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1221167638254161920

Why? Do you expect me to read this tweet and then research the list of names to see who they all are?

OMG! He does the research for you. Click "show this thread".


 Last edited by: tungsten on March 19, 2020, 10:06 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 19, 2020, 10:07 p.m.
Posts: 2097
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: syncro

. Nevermind that a lot can happen in 40 plus years.

No shit............

https://www.versobooks.com/books/3225-yesterday-s-man

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/jeremy-scahill-makes-the-definitive-case-against-joe-biden/


 Last edited by: tungsten on March 19, 2020, 10:34 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 20, 2020, 9:11 a.m.
Posts: 10539
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: switch

...in 1977, in which Biden, then a U.S. senator representing Delaware, allegedly expressed fear that desegregation, if not done in an “orderly” way, could result in his children growing up in “a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point".

Verified as true on Snopes.

I'd like to see the whole passage and take that into context before laying down any sort of judgement. Nevermind that a lot can happen in 40 plus years.

edit - just read the passage that was take from and unfortunately the follow up words after that last statement are missing. too much grey imo to call it one way or the other.

It was in relation to bussing.  Not everyone was too keen on the idea at the time including a lot of black people because it was just putting the kids all together and hoping it all worked out at a time with a lot more racial tension.  I think it was a good idea in my hindsight, but the quote is definitely being used to indicate that Biden was against desegregation in general and the context has been mainly lost.  This is what Kamala went after him on in the early debates.

March 20, 2020, 9:38 a.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

It was in relation to bussing.  Not everyone was too keen on the idea at the time including a lot of black people because it was just putting the kids all together and hoping it all worked out at a time with a lot more racial tension.  I think it was a good idea in my hindsight, but the quote is definitely being used to indicate that Biden was against desegregation in general and the context has been mainly lost.  This is what Kamala went after him on in the early debates.

Yeah, I got the bussing bit. I had more or less the same feeling over his words; that he had some valid concerns over the bussing issue that he felt needed to be addressed before moving forward. Unfortunately I haven't seen full disclosure so who's to say whether he was motivated by racism or had racist intent. This is yet again another example of why discourse in this age is broken.

1. You can't always be sure if what you're seeing/hearing is real
2. You typically don't have the full story
3. You don't know the intent/bias of the author

Considering that far too many people aren't even aware of their own biases it's not surprise that the spread of disinformation is so rampant. I'm not sure what's a greater plague to humanity, something like coronavirus or the disinformation/misinformation we get subjected to on a daily basis. Can you imagine if people considered the impact their words have and took the idea of being truthful and accurate as a serious responsibility instead of only considering how to gain an advantage?

March 20, 2020, 9:47 a.m.
Posts: 10539
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: ReductiMat

Posted by: chupacabra

  • Again, you overestimate the power of the DNC.
  • You are also advocating the very thing that every Bernie bro has whined about since 2016 and that is for the DNC to pick a favourite.
  • I don't remember praising the DNC anyway, I just asked a simple question.
  • How do you see a progressive using the power of the presidency as a bully pulpit to effect change?

  • You and Tungsten are the first to tell us all that the media is controlled by the vultures of capitalism.

  • If you are right then they will fight that message every step of the way.

  • They will make it impossible for centrist democrats to support any of it by destroying their re-elections.

  • And when Bernie or whoever is in charge can't achieve their goals they will blame him for the mess they created by hampering his efforts just like they did to Obama with the crippled ACA.

  • Obama had his faults but he spent 8 years with one hand tied behind his back trying to work with people that desperately wanted him to fail. Bernie would have that times 10.

You guys want to go all-in with a shitty hand or just fold if the cards said dumb shit 40 years ago. I want to play the cards that are dealt.

  • Again, you underestimate the power of the DNC.
  • What am I advocating for?
  • Who said you were praising the DNC?
  • The same way it's being used today.  The message is the message and if peoples faces are constantly confronted with it change can come.
  • Media control has been talked about for over fifty years, with incontrovertible proof, yet people still convince themselves they're OK and they're looking after us.
  • They are doing that now, see MSNBC, Newsweek, CNN to name but a few.

  • You're right, we shouldn't be allowed to vote and just let the donor class bequeath power like the kid-fiddlers do when a pope dies.

  • The only change Obama brought was more surveillance on its citizenry and more drone strikes than Bush.

My message is clear, Biden is a fractional change from Trump.  120 year old and unpatented drugs will still be ten times the cost of the same drug in other developed countries, drone strikes will still be killing tens of thousands a year abroad, people will still be slaves to their work for fear of losing health insurance, prisons will remain private and incentivized to create more criminals and wealth inequality will still spiral out of control.

If I could find a way to bet against the USA over a fifteen year time span I would put a lot of money on it.

You are advocating that the DNC promote Bernie and the progressive agenda.  How is that any different than the DNC pushing a centrist agenda.  The DNC should let the members decide who the Democrats are.

If the DNC cared about a better life for the meth-addled average American, they could take the 17,000 people Bernie drew in at Tacoma for a rally and turn it into a blue wave, using those very same tools as above.

You jumped into this conversation which started with Tungsten claiming that Bernie could just use his gravitas and the position of the Presidency to get shit done, so this got a bit confused, but we will clearly always disagree on Obama and I don't buy the black and white way you views politics.  The ACA was a big step forward for American health care and it would have been better if he didn't have to compromise, but he did and so would Bernie.  Politics is a complicated machine and Obama bad, Bernie good is just naive IMO.  

You're right, we shouldn't be allowed to vote and just let the donor class bequeath power like the kid-fiddlers do when a pope dies.

This is the opposite of what I believe.  We disagree with methods, not the end result.  America has 2 parties and I have never seen a reason to believe that will change soon.  So the answer is to co-opt a party, and even with your belief that they are both basically the same would probably agree that the Democrats are the obvious choice.  Progressives have made a lot of headway with candidates like AOC and with Bernie joining from independent status.  I just think if America has a progressive in the White House without first taking control in Congress and the Senate (and therefore the DNC) they will either have to overuse executive orders which is a clear abuse of power and will backfire, or they will get nothing done and look weak, or they will have to compromise.  Tungsten's bully pulpit theory is a pipedream.  All of these things can and would be used against them in the next election.  Getting a progressive in the office is meaningless if they fail and could set back the movement by a decade, so I think Bernie would have to compromise much more than you think he would or risk setting back the movement.  I still wanted him to win, I just don't think the choice between the 2 is nearly as stark.  Biden is being pulled toward progressive stances and Bernie would have to compromise.

March 20, 2020, 11:45 a.m.
Posts: 33324
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Obama got in as a progressive and the Republicans did whatever they could to stop any of his agenda.  Remember the nuclear option?

Obama did some change, but he was also straddled with an economic catastrophe.

As for the DNC, if they want to get anything done, whether it's progressive or not, they first have to get elected.  And this is what they are trying to do.  Doesn't make any sense to nominate someone who'll fail.

March 20, 2020, 12:04 p.m.
Posts: 2097
Joined: May 23, 2006

Such inculcates. shakes head......lol

So good.... 

Bernie, in spite of his age, is not a Santa figure, not a holly, jolly old Burl Ives hologram. He wouldn’t appear beaming from a Norman Rockwell print. He’s got crust; sober sincerity; little humor and a load of gravitas, none of which infantile America–addled with toon bunnies, ninja turtles, and cuddly bears selling shit–can love. He wants you to think, and act on your self-interest, and you don’t want to do that, most of you.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/four-more-years/


 Last edited by: tungsten on March 20, 2020, 12:16 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
March 20, 2020, 1:16 p.m.
Posts: 10539
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Considering that far too many people aren't even aware of their own biases it's not surprise that the spread of disinformation is so rampant. I'm not sure what's a greater plague to humanity, something like coronavirus or the disinformation/misinformation we get subjected to on a daily basis. Can you imagine if people considered the impact their words have and took the idea of being truthful and accurate as a serious responsibility instead of only considering how to gain an advantage?

Combining the 2 is crazy.  A friend of ours called my wife and was asking if she thought it was created in a lab.  Of course, she is an anti-vaxxer, so they are a little on edge right now and prone to leftist conspiracy theories.  Hard to be anti-vax in an age when we desperately need a vaccine.

March 20, 2020, 1:36 p.m.
Posts: 10539
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: tungsten

Such inculcates. shakes head......lol

So good.... 

Bernie, in spite of his age, is not a Santa figure, not a holly, jolly old Burl Ives hologram. He wouldn’t appear beaming from a Norman Rockwell print. He’s got crust; sober sincerity; little humor and a load of gravitas, none of which infantile America–addled with toon bunnies, ninja turtles, and cuddly bears selling shit–can love. He wants you to think, and act on your self-interest, and you don’t want to do that, most of you.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/four-more-years/

Adjectives!  Adjectives everywhere!  Fuck these writers are bad.

I love the logic here.  It starts by lamenting that Bernie's followers were wrong about their numbers and that the brainwashed olds overwhelmed them in supporting Biden.  

The raw truth is that, regardless of his ability to draw adoring crowds in tens of thousands to arenas and stadiums, his many committed don’t cut it when compared to the great mass of mainstream Democrat voters.

Then it ends by concluding Biden doesn't stand a chance against Trump.  

The Party–clearly shown up for the tool of privilege it’s always been–will lose its big donors and its sad drones and sink into irrelevance, and we’ll face The Beast empowered… with no opposition at all.

So what is the argument for Bernie again?  The guy that couldn't rally enough support to win the primary?  The guy that never had big donors?  Was he going to beat Trump?  Oh right.  The bully pulpit.  (my sides)

I do declare that Cooterpunch is wrong.  I say that the disgust of Trump is going to swell the number of voters of all kinds to vote for Biden and he will win.  Possibly bigly.  When that happens I expect Tungsten will start reading my weekly column.  Truth!  If it makes it more palatable I will also inject more adjectives into my writing than an 18-year-old, Adderall snorting, procrastinating, desperate, candle burning, freshman college student writing a last-minute essay that is still 150 words too short.

March 20, 2020, 6:12 p.m.
Posts: 11398
Joined: June 4, 2008

Posted by: chupacabra

You are advocating that the DNC promote Bernie and the progressive agenda.  How is that any different than the DNC pushing a centrist agenda.  The DNC should let the members decide who the Democrats are.

If the DNC cared about a better life for the meth-addled average American, they could take the 17,000 people Bernie drew in at Tacoma for a rally and turn it into a blue wave, using those very same tools as above.

You jumped into this conversation which started with Tungsten claiming that Bernie could just use his gravitas and the position of the Presidency to get shit done, so this got a bit confused, but we will clearly always disagree on Obama and I don't buy the black and white way you views politics.  The ACA was a big step forward for American health care and it would have been better if he didn't have to compromise, but he did and so would Bernie.  Politics is a complicated machine and Obama bad, Bernie good is just naive IMO.  

You're right, we shouldn't be allowed to vote and just let the donor class bequeath power like the kid-fiddlers do when a pope dies.

This is the opposite of what I believe.  We disagree with methods, not the end result.  America has 2 parties and I have never seen a reason to believe that will change soon.  So the answer is to co-opt a party, and even with your belief that they are both basically the same would probably agree that the Democrats are the obvious choice.  Progressives have made a lot of headway with candidates like AOC and with Bernie joining from independent status.  I just think if America has a progressive in the White House without first taking control in Congress and the Senate (and therefore the DNC) they will either have to overuse executive orders which is a clear abuse of power and will backfire, or they will get nothing done and look weak, or they will have to compromise.  Tungsten's bully pulpit theory is a pipedream.  All of these things can and would be used against them in the next election.  Getting a progressive in the office is meaningless if they fail and could set back the movement by a decade, so I think Bernie would have to compromise much more than you think he would or risk setting back the movement.  I still wanted him to win, I just don't think the choice between the 2 is nearly as stark.  Biden is being pulled toward progressive stances and Bernie would have to compromise.

Before I get into the meat of it, you've been sold a bill of goods that the ACA was a big step forward.  It was not.  In the fucking slightest.  Americans are still slaves to their employers.  Either Americans become the last of the 23 and socialize health care, or they'll continue to fuck the losers making less than $300,000 a year.  (And for any of you gas-huffer Canadians who believe we need a private option, fuck you, you are beyond stupid).

Secondly, never once did I say Bernie would use his gravitas to get shit done.  Two senators were just busted for insider-trading on COVID-19 and nothing will happen.  Even if Bernie were to get a hold of the conch.  Please, for the love of baby Jesus, quote me on saying Bernie will stop this.

And lastly, no dude, I am fucking not advocating that the DNC promote Bernie and the progressive agenda.  I am saying they are going out of their way to dissuade people from voting for Bernie because it conflicts with their interests.

So.

Let's take an imaginary world where we've gone against the wisdom of the men who've fought through absolute hell to claim independence from an imperialist nation.  We've then decided to ignore their pleas and let ourselves be ruled by one of two parties.

Now we imagine the parties shoehorn in supreme court judges with the expectation that they are paid back.  Citizens United?  Fuck yeah, FIRST AMENDMENT MY DUDE.  Oh look, the donor class gets to become feudal lords over an increasing peasant base.  Now political donations are infinite.  Buying policy is as easy as buying a Google ad.

The DNC and the GOP are now more powerful than Alphabet and Apple.

...

Bernie is a man I can't admire enough.  He's a politician who's never used focus groups to tell him what to do.  He's seen the world, said, "this is fucking bullshit, racism/homophobia/monopolies/etc. have no place in a functioning first world country" and ran with it for forty fucking years.

All that said, if the American's elect Bernie, all that will do is postpone the Frenc.. American Revolution down the road twenty years. 

Let's just re-elect Trump, or get Biden and get it over with sooner. 

I'm prepared.  I suggest you prepare as well.

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