Trump.

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1141812155177676800

nice trolling by trudeau

Let’s take the Russia business. Let’s say all the claims are true. Suppose Russia tried to interfere in the American elections. That ought to make people laugh hysterically. There is huge interference in American elections. It comes from the corporate sector. They practically buy the elections. In fact, there is extensive work in mainstream academic political science that demonstrates very convincingly that you can predict the electability, hence largely the votes, of people in Congress on major issues just by looking at their campaign funding. That is one factor, let alone lobbying and everything else. That is massive interference in elections.

- Noam Chomsky

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

Posted by: chupacabra

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

I tend to disagree with you here. Sure there may have been some Russian interference, but looking back I don't think it had a dramatic enough influence to change the outcome of the election. Many people were not overly keen on Clinton and she did more than enough to sink her own boat with her "basket of deplorables" comment. That the Dems couldn't put the right person in place to defeat Trump is pretty telling of the American psyche at that time. Sure it may be easy to see the connection between Trump and Russian influence, but don't overvalue the impact of that influence on the election. 

To Chomsky's point, the back room dealings and influencing of special interest groups and corporate America is a far greater concern and more damaging to the American public than what Russia came up with. Those interests are a big part of what's keeping the American people dumbed down with an education system that caters to those that have money. At the end of the day the American people are their own worst enemy and out of the people that vote  there are more who are solely interested in voting for their team or simply for someone they like than who are interested in issues that affect the American people. 

To wit it's also more or less the same here in Canada and that will prove evident in the coming election, particularly in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan. As much as I am disappointed with things the Libs have and have not done, when I consider the most pressing issues facing Canada these day the Libs have an edge over the Cons and unfortunately the NDP and Greens do not have enough weight to shift the balance of power unless we end up in a situation similar to what we have here in BC.

Posted by: Sethimus

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1141812155177676800

nice trolling by trudeau

I don't get it.

You need to know the back story a little. I would describe it as more of a good dig. I personally found quite funny.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

I tend to disagree with you here. Sure there may have been some Russian interference, but looking back I don't think it had a dramatic enough influence to change the outcome of the election. Many people were not overly keen on Clinton and she did more than enough to sink her own boat with her "basket of deplorables" comment. That the Dems couldn't put the right person in place to defeat Trump is pretty telling of the American psyche at that time. Sure it may be easy to see the connection between Trump and Russian influence, but don't overvalue the impact of that influence on the election. 

To Chomsky's point, the back room dealings and influencing of special interest groups and corporate America is a far greater concern and more damaging to the American public than what Russia came up with. Those interests are a big part of what's keeping the American people dumbed down with an education system that caters to those that have money. At the end of the day the American people are their own worst enemy and out of the people that vote  there are more who are solely interested in voting for their team or simply for someone they like than who are interested in issues that affect the American people. 

To wit it's also more or less the same here in Canada and that will prove evident in the coming election, particularly in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan. As much as I am disappointed with things the Libs have and have not done, when I consider the most pressing issues facing Canada these day the Libs have an edge over the Cons and unfortunately the NDP and Greens do not have enough weight to shift the balance of power unless we end up in a situation similar to what we have here in BC.

Sorry, but he won 6 states by less than 2%, and 3 of those by 0.2%, 0.7% and 0.8%.  Between the Russian campaign which was decidedly anti-HRC and pro-Trump, and the leaks of the DNC emails which we know the Russians stole, can you honestly say that those 3 or 6 states would have still gone for Trump?  The Mueller laid out quite clearly how sophisticated and well-timed this campaign was, and that it started in 2014, laying the groundwork for many of the reasons people soured on Hillary.  She was quite popular before that.  So with all that I find it hard to believe it had less than a 1% total effect of the votes.  That is only 0.5% of swing voters in 6 states that are primarily white.  The simple math is hard to ignore.

I get Chomsky's point, it is not that I disagree with him, but none if it will change, it will only get worse if the GOP keeps controlling governments in America.  When Chomsky goes on about general corruption he fails to point out how lopsided that corruption is, and that is how we ended up with so many people thinking HRC and the Democrats would be just as bad as Trump and the GOP.  He is influential and it muddies the water and makes voters look for too much purity.  America is not going to change in any drastic way immediately, they need to at least get a group of adults in charge first, so focusing on the reasons the GOP is an American nightmare is important. 

In some ways, I am happy that Trump won.  It has opened people's eyes to how fucking awful the GOP, especially the McConnell Senate, really is.  In 2020 America must get pragmatic, so focusing on the tasks down the to-do list is pointless.  Russian interference matters now, the AG working for Trump and ignoring the law matters now, the GOP cramming the courts full of sycophants matter now.  These are the little things that could lead to at least 4 more years after which it only gets harder.  Ditch the GOP and then we can talk about the greater corruption, until then, he is putting the cart before the horse.

Posted by: chupacabra

Sorry, but he won 6 states by less than 2%, and 3 of those by 0.2%, 0.7% and 0.8%. Between the Russian campaign which was decidedly anti-HRC and pro-Trump, and the leaks of the DNC emails which we know the Russians stole, can you honestly say that those 3 or 6 states would have still gone for Trump? The Mueller laid out quite clearly how sophisticated and well-timed this campaign was, and that it started in 2014, laying the groundwork for many of the reasons people soured on Hillary. She was quite popular before that. So with all that I find it hard to believe it had less than a 1% total effect of the votes. That is only 0.5% of swing voters in 6 states that are primarily white. The simple math is hard to ignore.

I get Chomsky's point, it is not that I disagree with him, but none if it will change, it will only get worse if the GOP keeps controlling governments in America. When Chomsky goes on about general corruption he fails to point out how lopsided that corruption is, and that is how we ended up with so many people thinking HRC and the Democrats would be just as bad as Trump and the GOP. He is influential and it muddies the water and makes voters look for too much purity. America is not going to change in any drastic way immediately, they need to at least get a group of adults in charge first, so focusing on the reasons the GOP is an American nightmare is important.

In some ways, I am happy that Trump won. It has opened people's eyes to how fucking awful the GOP, especially the McConnell Senate, really is. In 2020 America must get pragmatic, so focusing on the tasks down the to-do list is pointless. Russian interference matters now, the AG working for Trump and ignoring the law matters now, the GOP cramming the courts full of sycophants matter now. These are the little things that could lead to at least 4 more years after which it only gets harder. Ditch the GOP and then we can talk about the greater corruption, until then, he is putting the cart before the horse.

Sure the margins were slim in some states, but I just don't see the Russian interference as having been what turned so many away from Clinton and towards Trump. I'd agree that it may have confirmed people's thinking in voting for Trump, but there are plenty of other reasons, particularly in those close states, as to why people voted for Trump and not Hillary. You also need to consider historical factors, such as it being extremely rare for the incumbent of a two-term party to win again for three terms in a row. Rare enough that it hasn't happened in over 150yrs. The Dems need to come to the conclusion that they not only put the wrong person in place, they put in place the one person that had the strongest chance of losing to Trump.

edit

IMO the most dangerous aspect of this whole Russian thing is that it's turning people's attention away from the more serious reasons as to why Trump won. As long as the story continues to stay focused on that there is a greater chance that Trump will win again in 2020. Do you think Sanders would have beat Trump if he had won the Democratic nomination? If so ask yourself why and then compare that to why Clinton lost.

Right on, syncro. Trump won simply because working people all across 'merica wanted to give the bird to the inauthentic opposition. With help from the electoral college, of course.

Same thing will happen in 2020 if those cunts in the DNC shove Biden down our throats

Posted by: thaaad

Posted by: Sethimus

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1141812155177676800

nice trolling by trudeau

I don't get it.

he fired his chief of staff the other day for coughing during an interview. the old germaphobe has a big problem with people coughing in his presence...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/06/23/justin-trudeau-trolled-donald-trump-by-coughing-in-front-of-him-and-his-face-is-picture/

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

Sorry, but he won 6 states by less than 2%, and 3 of those by 0.2%, 0.7% and 0.8%. Between the Russian campaign which was decidedly anti-HRC and pro-Trump, and the leaks of the DNC emails which we know the Russians stole, can you honestly say that those 3 or 6 states would have still gone for Trump? The Mueller laid out quite clearly how sophisticated and well-timed this campaign was, and that it started in 2014, laying the groundwork for many of the reasons people soured on Hillary. She was quite popular before that. So with all that I find it hard to believe it had less than a 1% total effect of the votes. That is only 0.5% of swing voters in 6 states that are primarily white. The simple math is hard to ignore.

I get Chomsky's point, it is not that I disagree with him, but none if it will change, it will only get worse if the GOP keeps controlling governments in America. When Chomsky goes on about general corruption he fails to point out how lopsided that corruption is, and that is how we ended up with so many people thinking HRC and the Democrats would be just as bad as Trump and the GOP. He is influential and it muddies the water and makes voters look for too much purity. America is not going to change in any drastic way immediately, they need to at least get a group of adults in charge first, so focusing on the reasons the GOP is an American nightmare is important.

In some ways, I am happy that Trump won. It has opened people's eyes to how fucking awful the GOP, especially the McConnell Senate, really is. In 2020 America must get pragmatic, so focusing on the tasks down the to-do list is pointless. Russian interference matters now, the AG working for Trump and ignoring the law matters now, the GOP cramming the courts full of sycophants matter now. These are the little things that could lead to at least 4 more years after which it only gets harder. Ditch the GOP and then we can talk about the greater corruption, until then, he is putting the cart before the horse.

Sure the margins were slim in some states, but I just don't see the Russian interference as having been what turned so many away from Clinton and towards Trump. I'd agree that it may have confirmed people's thinking in voting for Trump, but there are plenty of other reasons, particularly in those close states, as to why people voted for Trump and not Hillary. You also need to consider historical factors, such as it being extremely rare for the incumbent of a two-term party to win again for three terms in a row. Rare enough that it hasn't happened in over 150yrs. The Dems need to come to the conclusion that they not only put the wrong person in place, they put in place the one person that had the strongest chance of losing to Trump.

edit

IMO the most dangerous aspect of this whole Russian thing is that it's turning people's attention away from the more serious reasons as to why Trump won. As long as the story continues to stay focused on that there is a greater chance that Trump will win again in 2020. Do you think Sanders would have beat Trump if he had won the Democratic nomination? If so ask yourself why and then compare that to why Clinton lost.

There are of course many factors in any election.  I do consider those and you are not the first to point that out to me.  She should have wiped the floor with him, but my point is that without the Russians, it is hard to argue that she would not have won.  Their impact pushed him over the finish line, and they will try again in 2020, but Hillary is irrelevant in 2020, so her many failings in 2016 are not much of a concern.  With the 2020 election coming, this is something that people can be pissed off about and possibly save us all from it happening again.  It is one of the major findings in the Mueller report.  If people are conscious of the propaganda, they can see through it, Russian or not, and I don't want to see 4 more years of the idiot because this wasn't taken seriously as Chomsky suggests.  Hillary was unpopular, and a dishonest and unaccountable smear campaign can do the same to the next candidate.  Opinion pieces on the internet can't overturn Gerrymandering, lobbying, SuperPACs, Citizens United, or any of these very terrible things he talks about, but they can focus people on the threat of propaganda.  The only way to even have a hope of reversing Chomsky's list of threats to American democracy is to beat Trump and McConnell in 2020, and if it becomes another game of inches saying we should laugh about the Russians will be the worst advice ever given.  

People don't focus on one thing.  That is essentially what you are saying with Hillary, so people can be aware of Russian interference and Trump's complicit behavior while also being mad about all the other things.  It is the aggregate of all the news and BS that goes through their minds before they vote, and the Russians are gaming that calculus.  It is also untrue that this is the focus of any news source at the moment, so this supposed danger is unfounded.

I don't care to analyze all the reasons why Hillary lost, or if Bernie would have beat Trump (I think he would have).  I care that the still existing Russian influence on the next election could affect 2020, and you can bet trump will do as little as possible to stop it.