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Trump.

June 12, 2019, 11:51 p.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: chupacabra

Trump has known dove and peacenik John Bolton as his National Security Adviser.

"Mick Mulvaney, Trump’s chief of staff, has very quietly and discreetly begun informal meetings with a list of a half-dozen possible replacements for Bolton." - https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/12/john-boltons-long-goodbye/

I always thought it was a real tragedy that Miroslav Satan never played for New Jersey.  

I already heard that one on the tee vee.


 Last edited by: tungsten on June 12, 2019, 11:55 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 20, 2019, 10:03 p.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/noam-chomsky-the-real-election-meddling-isnt-coming-from-russia/

June 20, 2019, 10:04 p.m.
Posts: 10891
Joined: June 4, 2008

That man is one of the greatest humans to have ever walked this earth.

June 21, 2019, 6:33 p.m.
Posts: 355
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Called it off, guess he’s a hero now.

June 22, 2019, 10:51 a.m.
Posts: 2024
Joined: April 2, 2005

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1141812155177676800

nice trolling by trudeau

June 22, 2019, 8:50 p.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006


 Last edited by: tungsten on June 22, 2019, 10:05 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 22, 2019, 10:19 p.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006

Let’s take the Russia business. Let’s say all the claims are true. Suppose Russia tried to interfere in the American elections. That ought to make people laugh hysterically. There is huge interference in American elections. It comes from the corporate sector. They practically buy the elections. In fact, there is extensive work in mainstream academic political science that demonstrates very convincingly that you can predict the electability, hence largely the votes, of people in Congress on major issues just by looking at their campaign funding. That is one factor, let alone lobbying and everything else. That is massive interference in elections.

- Noam Chomsky

June 24, 2019, 9:06 a.m.
Posts: 9895
Joined: June 29, 2006

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

June 24, 2019, 5:37 p.m.
Posts: 989
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

I tend to disagree with you here. Sure there may have been some Russian interference, but looking back I don't think it had a dramatic enough influence to change the outcome of the election. Many people were not overly keen on Clinton and she did more than enough to sink her own boat with her "basket of deplorables" comment. That the Dems couldn't put the right person in place to defeat Trump is pretty telling of the American psyche at that time. Sure it may be easy to see the connection between Trump and Russian influence, but don't overvalue the impact of that influence on the election. 

To Chomsky's point, the back room dealings and influencing of special interest groups and corporate America is a far greater concern and more damaging to the American public than what Russia came up with. Those interests are a big part of what's keeping the American people dumbed down with an education system that caters to those that have money. At the end of the day the American people are their own worst enemy and out of the people that vote  there are more who are solely interested in voting for their team or simply for someone they like than who are interested in issues that affect the American people. 

To wit it's also more or less the same here in Canada and that will prove evident in the coming election, particularly in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan. As much as I am disappointed with things the Libs have and have not done, when I consider the most pressing issues facing Canada these day the Libs have an edge over the Cons and unfortunately the NDP and Greens do not have enough weight to shift the balance of power unless we end up in a situation similar to what we have here in BC.

June 24, 2019, 7:57 p.m.
Posts: 411
Joined: March 15, 2013

Posted by: Sethimus

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1141812155177676800

nice trolling by trudeau

I don't get it.

June 25, 2019, 9:48 a.m.
Posts: 355
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

You need to know the back story a little. I would describe it as more of a good dig. I personally found quite funny.

June 25, 2019, 9:55 a.m.
Posts: 9895
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

This is why I don't like Chomsky.  He is a very smart man but the reason people are up in arms about Russian interference is that we can draw a straight line to the election of Trump, the man who embodies corruption, and the election of Trump has made everything he just mentioned far worse.  If America can't stop foreign interference, how the hell can they overturn Citizens United which could lead to electing politicians that might actually try to enact legislation to fight corruption in their election system?  He is not saying anything we don't all know, but if Trump wins by another slim margin with the tailwind of foreign interference anyone that wants a better America loses another battle of this war that could have been won.  With the GOP in charge, NOTHING he talks about will ever change, it will only get worse.  It is not just because the Democrats are the better choice, which they are albeit far from perfect, it is because the voters that could care less about what Chomsky has to say support the GOP and will never hold their feet to the fire for democracy.  At least the Dems have to answer to people that care about the future of democracy.  Sorry Noam, a swing and a miss.

I tend to disagree with you here. Sure there may have been some Russian interference, but looking back I don't think it had a dramatic enough influence to change the outcome of the election. Many people were not overly keen on Clinton and she did more than enough to sink her own boat with her "basket of deplorables" comment. That the Dems couldn't put the right person in place to defeat Trump is pretty telling of the American psyche at that time. Sure it may be easy to see the connection between Trump and Russian influence, but don't overvalue the impact of that influence on the election. 

To Chomsky's point, the back room dealings and influencing of special interest groups and corporate America is a far greater concern and more damaging to the American public than what Russia came up with. Those interests are a big part of what's keeping the American people dumbed down with an education system that caters to those that have money. At the end of the day the American people are their own worst enemy and out of the people that vote  there are more who are solely interested in voting for their team or simply for someone they like than who are interested in issues that affect the American people. 

To wit it's also more or less the same here in Canada and that will prove evident in the coming election, particularly in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan. As much as I am disappointed with things the Libs have and have not done, when I consider the most pressing issues facing Canada these day the Libs have an edge over the Cons and unfortunately the NDP and Greens do not have enough weight to shift the balance of power unless we end up in a situation similar to what we have here in BC.

Sorry, but he won 6 states by less than 2%, and 3 of those by 0.2%, 0.7% and 0.8%.  Between the Russian campaign which was decidedly anti-HRC and pro-Trump, and the leaks of the DNC emails which we know the Russians stole, can you honestly say that those 3 or 6 states would have still gone for Trump?  The Mueller laid out quite clearly how sophisticated and well-timed this campaign was, and that it started in 2014, laying the groundwork for many of the reasons people soured on Hillary.  She was quite popular before that.  So with all that I find it hard to believe it had less than a 1% total effect of the votes.  That is only 0.5% of swing voters in 6 states that are primarily white.  The simple math is hard to ignore.

I get Chomsky's point, it is not that I disagree with him, but none if it will change, it will only get worse if the GOP keeps controlling governments in America.  When Chomsky goes on about general corruption he fails to point out how lopsided that corruption is, and that is how we ended up with so many people thinking HRC and the Democrats would be just as bad as Trump and the GOP.  He is influential and it muddies the water and makes voters look for too much purity.  America is not going to change in any drastic way immediately, they need to at least get a group of adults in charge first, so focusing on the reasons the GOP is an American nightmare is important. 

In some ways, I am happy that Trump won.  It has opened people's eyes to how fucking awful the GOP, especially the McConnell Senate, really is.  In 2020 America must get pragmatic, so focusing on the tasks down the to-do list is pointless.  Russian interference matters now, the AG working for Trump and ignoring the law matters now, the GOP cramming the courts full of sycophants matter now.  These are the little things that could lead to at least 4 more years after which it only gets harder.  Ditch the GOP and then we can talk about the greater corruption, until then, he is putting the cart before the horse.

June 25, 2019, 10:53 a.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006

June 25, 2019, 6:02 p.m.
Posts: 989
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

Sorry, but he won 6 states by less than 2%, and 3 of those by 0.2%, 0.7% and 0.8%. Between the Russian campaign which was decidedly anti-HRC and pro-Trump, and the leaks of the DNC emails which we know the Russians stole, can you honestly say that those 3 or 6 states would have still gone for Trump? The Mueller laid out quite clearly how sophisticated and well-timed this campaign was, and that it started in 2014, laying the groundwork for many of the reasons people soured on Hillary. She was quite popular before that. So with all that I find it hard to believe it had less than a 1% total effect of the votes. That is only 0.5% of swing voters in 6 states that are primarily white. The simple math is hard to ignore.

I get Chomsky's point, it is not that I disagree with him, but none if it will change, it will only get worse if the GOP keeps controlling governments in America. When Chomsky goes on about general corruption he fails to point out how lopsided that corruption is, and that is how we ended up with so many people thinking HRC and the Democrats would be just as bad as Trump and the GOP. He is influential and it muddies the water and makes voters look for too much purity. America is not going to change in any drastic way immediately, they need to at least get a group of adults in charge first, so focusing on the reasons the GOP is an American nightmare is important.

In some ways, I am happy that Trump won. It has opened people's eyes to how fucking awful the GOP, especially the McConnell Senate, really is. In 2020 America must get pragmatic, so focusing on the tasks down the to-do list is pointless. Russian interference matters now, the AG working for Trump and ignoring the law matters now, the GOP cramming the courts full of sycophants matter now. These are the little things that could lead to at least 4 more years after which it only gets harder. Ditch the GOP and then we can talk about the greater corruption, until then, he is putting the cart before the horse.

Sure the margins were slim in some states, but I just don't see the Russian interference as having been what turned so many away from Clinton and towards Trump. I'd agree that it may have confirmed people's thinking in voting for Trump, but there are plenty of other reasons, particularly in those close states, as to why people voted for Trump and not Hillary. You also need to consider historical factors, such as it being extremely rare for the incumbent of a two-term party to win again for three terms in a row. Rare enough that it hasn't happened in over 150yrs. The Dems need to come to the conclusion that they not only put the wrong person in place, they put in place the one person that had the strongest chance of losing to Trump.

edit

IMO the most dangerous aspect of this whole Russian thing is that it's turning people's attention away from the more serious reasons as to why Trump won. As long as the story continues to stay focused on that there is a greater chance that Trump will win again in 2020. Do you think Sanders would have beat Trump if he had won the Democratic nomination? If so ask yourself why and then compare that to why Clinton lost.


 Last edited by: syncro on June 25, 2019, 6:10 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
June 25, 2019, 6:43 p.m.
Posts: 1282
Joined: May 23, 2006

Right on, syncro. Trump won simply because working people all across 'merica wanted to give the bird to the inauthentic opposition. With help from the electoral college, of course.

Same thing will happen in 2020 if those cunts in the DNC shove Biden down our throats

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