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Police brutality.

Nov. 22, 2022, 1:41 p.m.
Posts: 15593
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

" Defund the police " is not a slogan that made much sense to me

so what are you gona do with the funds instead ?

wouldn't it make mo sense to create a slogan something along the lines of mo funds for social services?

Nov. 22, 2022, 2:20 p.m.
Posts: 15693
Joined: May 29, 2004

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: chupacabra

the slightest chance that a cop might break a nail > An innocent person's life

What happened chup? You were so much cooler 5 years ago.

Weren't we all?  LOL

I agree with you though I never said anything like what you have paraphrased.  I have seen a thousand videos of police action where the police would rather shoot someone than expose themselves to any risk or try to de-escalate the situation.  When a cop is killed in action there is a parade and it is front-page news when it isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.  When they kill or injure someone it is because they "had to take action" or some other nonsense and there has to be a mountain of evidence against them in order to even try to hold any of them accountable.  The thin blue line is bullshit 99% of the time.  

BUT

We can't throw the baby out with the bath water.  "Defund the Police" is a slogan for morons that can't see their worth.  Ultimately they work for us and we can change their hiring practices and their oversight.  I think that it will need to happen at the federal level because it appears that most of the issues happen in the city police forces because they can't control them.  If every single case of death or injury was reviewed by a federal organization that was not made up of anything but ex-cops it would make a difference.  If body cams were mandatory and the federal organization I mentioned had unlimited access to the raw data and feeds it would change things.  It would be a battle to make this happen but a lot of people would support it.  

What other option do we have?

Internet outrage is the only option.

Nov. 22, 2022, 3:36 p.m.
Posts: 13117
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: chupacabra

the slightest chance that a cop might break a nail > An innocent person's life

What happened chup? You were so much cooler 5 years ago.

Weren't we all? LOL

I agree with you though I never said anything like what you have paraphrased. I have seen a thousand videos of police action where the police would rather shoot someone than expose themselves to any risk or try to de-escalate the situation. When a cop is killed in action there is a parade and it is front-page news when it isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs. When they kill or injure someone it is because they "had to take action" or some other nonsense and there has to be a mountain of evidence against them in order to even try to hold any of them accountable. The thin blue line is bullshit 99% of the time.

BUT

We can't throw the baby out with the bath water. "Defund the Police" is a slogan for morons that can't see their worth. Ultimately they work for us and we can change their hiring practices and their oversight. I think that it will need to happen at the federal level because it appears that most of the issues happen in the city police forces because they can't control them. If every single case of death or injury was reviewed by a federal organization that was not made up of anything but ex-cops it would make a difference. If body cams were mandatory and the federal organization I mentioned had unlimited access to the raw data and feeds it would change things. It would be a battle to make this happen but a lot of people would support it.

What other option do we have?

Fire every cop and make them re-apply for their jobs. It's been done before.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750

And body cams don't do shit. They'll just cover them up with some duct tape before the brutality and say some debris got on it and the police union will go along with it and fight tooth and nail to make sure the pig never faces a consequence.


 Last edited by: Fast-Orange on Nov. 22, 2022, 3:36 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Nov. 23, 2022, 5:23 a.m.
Posts: 1419
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Holy fuck Marcus, oops I mean Fast. You really have a hard on for cops.

Nov. 23, 2022, 5:43 a.m.
Posts: 14751
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Posted by: XXX_er

" Defund the police " is not a slogan that made much sense to me

so what are you gona do with the funds instead ?

wouldn't it make mo sense to create a slogan something along the lines of mo funds for social services?

“Re-allocate police funding to more appropriate and data driven social work“ is not as catchy. 

But it was a bad slogan for a good idea.  Don’t need police as the only response to every call.

Nov. 23, 2022, 9:29 a.m.
Posts: 11924
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Fire every cop and make them re-apply for their jobs. It's been done before.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750

And body cams don't do shit. They'll just cover them up with some duct tape before the brutality and say some debris got on it and the police union will go along with it and fight tooth and nail to make sure the pig never faces a consequence.

Camden is not exactly a great match for what Vancouver needs. It is 93% visible minorities and had a murder rate on par with Honduras. They also have a lot of issues from the new reforms that are at the end of the article you posted. They are now non-union and are paid far less than before. Turnover is now a big issue.

The main takeaway from Camden wasn't their scorched earth approach, it was that they reframed what it meant to be a successful cop. They put a priority on complaints from the communities they served and changed how they are trained, but I bet even with all of their reforms they still have worse training than the cops in the VPD. Also, body cams.

The cameras "are the key to transparency and trust in our communities, not just for use of force but for accountability to ensure that our officers serve our communities with respect and dignity," said Camden County Police Chief Gabriel Rodriguez.

To be honest with you, I think this all comes down to just how many cops in the VPD you believe are violent sociopaths. The way you talk it sounds like you would put that number north of 50% so why not fire them all? Who cares about the baby in the bath water if the baby is Hitler? I don't see it that way so I think the best reform is to remove all roadblocks to oversight at the federal level.


 Last edited by: chupacabra on Nov. 23, 2022, 9:29 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Nov. 23, 2022, 9:35 a.m.
Posts: 11924
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: XXX_er

" Defund the police " is not a slogan that made much sense to me

so what are you gona do with the funds instead ?

wouldn't it make mo sense to create a slogan something along the lines of mo funds for social services?

It was stupid, although to be fair it was a phrase taken from activists and used by conservatives to stir up fear.  It is also a common right-wing line of reasoning so it was weird to see the far left jump all over it.  "If it doesn't work, defund it" could have been the conservative slogan for the past 50 years.

Nov. 24, 2022, 7:25 p.m.
Posts: 13117
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

https://twitter.com/VANDUpeople/status/1595937765526732800?t=XAbcYyLCvPkoAbj6qPXRuA&s=19

Nov. 24, 2022, 8:15 p.m.
Posts: 2525
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Fast-Orange

https://twitter.com/VANDUpeople/status/1595937765526732800?t=XAbcYyLCvPkoAbj6qPXRuA&s=19

The problem with videos like these is that we are lacking a serious amount of context. This type of police response doesn't just happen for some guy who is mouthing off to his cabbie. I'd bet that the person in question threatened the cabbie with violence and possibly a weapon (gun?) which is where there is such a heavy police response. I've seen this sort of thing before from Vandu where they assume the worst without having any or most of the backstory. While I support some of their initiatives, this sort of "reporting" seriously damages their credibility and also does damage to legitimate claims of police abuse.

Nov. 25, 2022, 5:39 a.m.
Posts: 13117
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

I dont care what he did. He turned around to put his hands on the roof of the vehicle and they shot him with beanbags and sicced a dog on him.

Nov. 25, 2022, 5:41 a.m.
Posts: 13117
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Fire every cop and make them re-apply for their jobs. It's been done before.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750

And body cams don't do shit. They'll just cover them up with some duct tape before the brutality and say some debris got on it and the police union will go along with it and fight tooth and nail to make sure the pig never faces a consequence.

Camden is not exactly a great match for what Vancouver needs. It is 93% visible minorities and had a murder rate on par with Honduras. They also have a lot of issues from the new reforms that are at the end of the article you posted. They are now non-union and are paid far less than before. Turnover is now a big issue.

The main takeaway from Camden wasn't their scorched earth approach, it was that they reframed what it meant to be a successful cop. They put a priority on complaints from the communities they served and changed how they are trained, but I bet even with all of their reforms they still have worse training than the cops in the VPD. Also, body cams.

The cameras "are the key to transparency and trust in our communities, not just for use of force but for accountability to ensure that our officers serve our communities with respect and dignity," said Camden County Police Chief Gabriel Rodriguez.

To be honest with you, I think this all comes down to just how many cops in the VPD you believe are violent sociopaths. The way you talk it sounds like you would put that number north of 50% so why not fire them all? Who cares about the baby in the bath water if the baby is Hitler? I don't see it that way so I think the best reform is to remove all roadblocks to oversight at the federal level.

I think it's likely less than 5% but it doesn't matter because the department and the union is set up to protect them no matter what they do.

Nov. 25, 2022, 5:53 a.m.
Posts: 2525
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Fast-Orange

I dont care what he did. He turned around to put his hands on the roof of the vehicle and they shot him with beanbags and sicced a dog on him.

So if the guy had a weapon you'd be able to predict his psychology and determine that he would attempt to use it in the process of being arrested?

Nov. 25, 2022, 6:16 a.m.
Posts: 13117
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Fast-Orange

I dont care what he did. He turned around to put his hands on the roof of the vehicle and they shot him with beanbags and sicced a dog on him.

So if the guy had a weapon you'd be able to predict his psychology and determine that he would attempt to use it in the process of being arrested?

If this is the justification then the cops should just shoot everyone they're planning to arrest

Nov. 25, 2022, 6:51 a.m.
Posts: 2525
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Fast-Orange

I dont care what he did. He turned around to put his hands on the roof of the vehicle and they shot him with beanbags and sicced a dog on him.

So if the guy had a weapon you'd be able to predict his psychology and determine that he would attempt to use it in the process of being arrested?

If this is the justification then the cops should just shoot everyone they're planning to arrest

It's almost like you think they just decided to randomly arrest some guy from a cab. Do you happen to know what was said in the call to police that resulted in their response?

Nov. 25, 2022, 8:26 a.m.
Posts: 2525
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

So it seems the person in question "is a high-risk and violent offender with a history of armed robberies, assaulting police, and drug trafficking. He is involved in the Downtown Eastside’s illicit drug trade and, based on his violent history, is considered armed and dangerous."

https://twitter.com/VancouverPD/status/1595997531464683520

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