New posts

pending teachers strike, BCTF and the gov't

May 25, 2014, 9:26 p.m.
Posts: 12807
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

In any profession/job there's going to be varying opinions on job performance. That doesn't exclude the need for checks and balances on employee performance.

What indications do you have that these do not already exist?

Teachers performance should not be reviewed by the academic performance of their students. They should be reviewed based upon their dedication, work-ethic and the quality of their lessons and methodology. Especially when they have to deal with a class composition that makes accomplishing their lesson aims virtually impossible and makes them spend the whole day putting out fires.

There are many reasons for children to do poorly academically. Very rarely is it because they have a lousy teacher. They are the easiest to blame though.

www.natooke.com

May 25, 2014, 9:38 p.m.
Posts: 3368
Joined: Dec. 10, 2002

In any profession/job there's going to be varying opinions on job performance. That doesn't exclude the need for checks and balances on employee performance.

How much taxpayer money do you think it would take to implement these checks and balances?

What would be your strategy for checks and balances?

Grades? Won't work. Popularity with students and parents? Possibly but still flawed

So what then?

You too Couch Surfer. You talk about check and balances but thats just fluff without specifics. There are too many variables and subjectives to implement this easily. It's not exactly like your one dimensional world of dollars and cents. We are talking education of kids.

On the subject of kids, I'd be curious as to how many BCTF bashers have kids in the public system. I have a hunch here but I may be off base.

There are too many things teacher's can't control. And as for administrators observing classes, I'm pretty sure that already happens.

It does. Constantly.

"May a commune of gay, Marxist Muslim illegal immigrants use your tax dollars to open a drive-thru abortion clinic in your church."

May 25, 2014, 10:05 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Aug. 4, 2003

Supply and demand. There is an oversupply of teachers, and lowering their pay is the logical solution to this. The fact that teachers are unionized is the only reason that this hasn't been allowed to work itself out already. If they want to be considered professionals (in the same category as doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc), they need to drop the union and negotiate individually. This would allow districts to promote based on competence rather than on years and # of pieces of paper hanging on the wall.

Average that over a 12 month year. Most salaried folks I know average at least 50 hrs per week, 12 months a year. 60 hrs a week 9 months per year isn't jack shit.

Unions are an outdated drain on society. They should have been eradicated long ago.

Says the guy from the US. How's all that working out for you down there.

May 25, 2014, 10:09 p.m.
Posts: 14377
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

You too Couch Surfer. You talk about check and balances but thats just fluff without specifics. There are too many variables and subjectives to implement this easily. It's not exactly like your one dimensional world of dollars and cents. We are talking education of kids.

So it's tough, so we shouldn't talk about how to solve it? Is that your opinion?

We could start with models used in the private sector… Every year, my manager talks to people I work with, people that have worked on projects I've been a part of, and if possible gets feedback from any customers I've worked with. He formulates an opinion of me and my work and of all others on our team and basically ranks us. Then he gets a pool of money (if there is any based on economic conditions for the company for the year) and divides it up based on his professional opinion on who should get what amount of the pool. (from the pool he will try and bring under earners up, keep his star performers motivated, and give little to the plugs…. Those are his levers as a manager.

If those models don't work, I think we could come up with ones that do. But why attack anyone that wants to engage in a conversation about it.

On the subject of kids, I'd be curious as to how many BCTF bashers have kids in the public system. I have a hunch here but I may be off base.

So basically, if I don't have kids, I don't have a right to an opinion about how my taxes are spent? Is that your position?

Ridiculous.

May 25, 2014, 10:20 p.m.
Posts: 11904
Joined: June 4, 2008

So basically, if I don't have kids, I don't have a right to an opinion about how my taxes are spent? Is that your position?

Do you have a position for every position paid by tax dollars?

May 25, 2014, 10:20 p.m.
Posts: 12807
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

We could start with models used in the private sector… Every year, my manager talks to people I work with, people that have worked on projects I've been a part of, and if possible gets feedback from any customers I've worked with. He formulates an opinion of me and my work and of all others on our team and basically ranks us. Then he gets a pool of money (if there is any based on economic conditions for the company for the year) and divides it up based on his professional opinion on who should get what amount of the pool. (from the pool he will try and bring under earners up, keep his star performers motivated, and give little to the plugs…. Those are his levers as a manager.

So you want to create a system where a manager type, based soley on his own opinion, ranks all the teachers by how "good" they are and gives them unequal wages despite the fact that they all put up with the same bullshit? By what criteria would we determine the teacher's worth? How many of his or her kindergarten graduates go on to ivy league? By their future contributions to society?

www.natooke.com

May 25, 2014, 10:27 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Aug. 4, 2003

12 hours on a construction site's got nothin' on 6 hours with 15-30 drunken midgets.

Spectacular!

May 25, 2014, 10:29 p.m.
Posts: 15546
Joined: May 29, 2004

As a parent who has two children in school, I'm all for performance reviews as long as you explicitly exclude children and parent input.

Furthermore, standardized tests are for simpletons. If you think they are a benchmark, you're either fooling yourself or you're ignorant.

If you have children, how often are you asking them, "Are you having any problems with your lessons today?" If it's never, fuck you. If it's every month, fuck you. If it's every day, they're going to turn out fine.

I could kiss you right now.

May 25, 2014, 10:35 p.m.
Posts: 14377
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

So you want to create a system where a manager type, based soley on his own opinion, ranks all the teachers by how "good" they are and gives them unequal wages despite the fact that they all put up with the same bullshit? By what criteria would we determine the teacher's worth? How many of his or her kindergarten graduates go on to ivy league? By their future contributions to society?

I'm saying that this is how it works in the private sector. It may or may not be an appropriate model for teachers, and it may need some tweaks. But since I was specifically asked to provide thoughts, I did.

If you have a better model, feel free to provide it.

May 25, 2014, 10:41 p.m.
Posts: 14377
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Do you have a position for every position paid by tax dollars?

If you prefer to hand over your taxes and then not question or engage in how they are spent, that's on you.

May 25, 2014, 10:58 p.m.
Posts: 3368
Joined: Dec. 10, 2002

So it's tough, so we shouldn't talk about how to solve it? Is that your opinion?

I actually asked you to talk and stop spouting fluff. Thats my opinion.

We could start with models used in the private sector… Every year, my manager talks to people I work with, people that have worked on projects I've been a part of, and if possible gets feedback from any customers I've worked with. He formulates an opinion of me and my work and of all others on our team and basically ranks us. Then he gets a pool of money (if there is any based on economic conditions for the company for the year) and divides it up based on his professional opinion on who should get what amount of the pool. (from the pool he will try and bring under earners up, keep his star performers motivated, and give little to the plugs…. Those are his levers as a manager.

Sounds like a great system The bottom line is if you sell, it's your sales that position you. Customer service plays into it of course (if you're looking for repeat business) but if your customer service sucks, you fizzle out on returning business. You have a VERY EASY scale. You sell, you earn.

Just curious who are the all these people we are talking to in the school system? You have kids, parents, teachers, admin, school board. Thats about it.
If you have good admin they will have a general idea who is doing a good job and who isn't. Admin has multiple avenues to apply pressure. Poor performing teachers either comply or get faced with a number of deterrents. You rarely here about these taking place because they happen behind closed doors for good reason. An unready struggling teacher would be even less effective if the students found out they are under the gun. Trust me when I say that shitty teachers will get the shitty end of the stick a tonne.

You keep talking about your magical private sector. This is a school not a Walmart. Just face it. You have no idea no things run in the school system. The more you talk the more obvious it becomes.

If those models don't work, I think we could come up with ones that do. But why attack anyone that wants to engage in a conversation about it.

Do you think you're the first person who has thought of performance based earnings for teachers? If by attack you mean pointing out obvious flaws in your theories then I guess I'm guilty.

So basically, if I don't have kids, I don't have a right to an opinion about how my taxes are spent? Is that your position?

Ridiculous.

Basically if you don't have kids you have no clue whats going on in schools right now. Thats my position.
And I see my hunch was bang on with you at least.

If the BCTF says at any point: Fine, we'll take the same wage deal as other public sector workers, but class size/composition is now our only issue, I think the discussion would be much different

I will def agree with that. Pretty sure that teachers have tried a similar approach to this before and got the shaft.

"May a commune of gay, Marxist Muslim illegal immigrants use your tax dollars to open a drive-thru abortion clinic in your church."

May 25, 2014, 11:26 p.m.
Posts: 14377
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

I actually asked you to talk and stop spouting fluff. Thats my opinion.

Sounds like a great system The bottom line is if you sell, it's your sales that position you. Customer service plays into it of course (if you're looking for repeat business) but if your customer service sucks, you fizzle out on returning business. You have a VERY EASY scale. You sell, you earn.

Just curious who are the all these people we are talking to in the school system? You have kids, parents, teachers, admin, school board. Thats about it.
If you have good admin they will have a general idea who is doing a good job and who isn't. Admin has multiple avenues to apply pressure. Poor performing teachers either comply or get faced with a number of deterrents. You rarely here about these taking place because they happen behind closed doors for good reason. An unready struggling teacher would be even less effective if the students found out they are under the gun. Trust me when I say that shitty teachers will get the shitty end of the stick a tonne.

You keep talking about your magical private sector. This is a school not a Walmart. Just face it. You have no idea no things run in the school system. The more you talk the more obvious it becomes.

Do you think you're the first person who has thought of performance based earnings for teachers? If by attack you mean pointing out obvious flaws in your theories then I guess I'm guilty.

Basically if you don't have kids you have no clue whats going on in schools right now. Thats my position.
And I see my hunch was bang on with you at least.

If this is the type of open discussion and debate that is encouraged these days in our education system, then you're making my arguments for me.

May 26, 2014, 12:25 a.m.
Posts: 33648
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Basically if you don't have kids you have no clue whats going on in schools right now. Thats my position.

If that's true, then I think I would have an excellent clue of what's going on as I have a kid that just finished going K-12 in our public school system and was taught by dozens of teachers.

I'll forget all the misinformation about working hours, salaries, class sizes, special needs, etc. as both the government and the BCTF fudge numbers. Instead I'll talk about teachers.

What I've had issues with are two things. The first is the off-loading of work onto the parents of the students. Please do not try to tell me it doesn't happen, because I've experienced it numerous times, as have many family members and friends. What I do not like about this is that some parents are not as capable as others in assisting, creating a disparity that should not exist. Plus, children should be playing when they get home, and doing school work when in school, and not the reverse.

The second issue I have is what a teacher is teaching. When a system allows for a teacher to teach a course that they do not fully understand because of "seniority", then that is a big problem. When a teacher cannot explain a subject to a student and tells them "just read what's in the book", that's a problem. If there is a teacher who's much better qualified to teach the subject matter then seniority should not be part of the equation.

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells

May 26, 2014, 1:25 a.m.
Posts: 2285
Joined: Feb. 5, 2005

Says the guy from the US. How's all that working out for you down there.

By paying attention to the laws of supply and demand, I chose a degree with 100% placement rates, one of the top averagevstarting salaries in the country, and I get to play with explosives. So pretty good.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

That's the problem with cities, they're refuges for the weak, the fish that didn't evolve.

I don't want to google this - sounds like a thing that NSMB will be better at.

May 26, 2014, 1:31 a.m.
Posts: 2285
Joined: Feb. 5, 2005

What I've had issues with are two things. The first is the off-loading of work onto the parents of the students. Please do not try to tell me it doesn't happen, because I've experienced it numerous times, as have many family members and friends. What I do not like about this is that some parents are not as capable as others in assisting, creating a disparity that should not exist. Plus, children should be playing when they get home, and doing school work when in school, and not the reverse.

I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at here. Care to elaborate?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

That's the problem with cities, they're refuges for the weak, the fish that didn't evolve.

I don't want to google this - sounds like a thing that NSMB will be better at.

Forum jump: