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pending teachers strike, BCTF and the gov't

May 23, 2014, 7:55 p.m.
Posts: 2285
Joined: Feb. 5, 2005

There's a lot that goes into salary, but just looking at the range doesn't give you an appropriate view on how they're actually paid. A large number of teachers are cat 4 or 5, so they're already in a smaller bracket, with very few making above 50k (explanation coming). In the new system you can get to 5+ easier if you do a separate undergrad, as teacher training will give you a full second bachelor degree. but cat 6 you need a masters. Also you can't start going up your "steps" until you're on a continuing contract (the loophole that keeps many teachers in the low pay brackets), and how quickly you move up the steps depends on how what your contract is for (.7, .8, 1.0, etc.). Some teachers can spend years without a continuing contract, stuck at the lowest pay scale.

Also, teachers from the older system can be stuck in an even lower category that doesn't exist for new teachers. My Mom did her teaching undergrad in the 70's, and was able to get a teaching certificate after three years of university. So that meant she doesn't even have a degree at all (which was fine and normal back then). She made under 30,000/year many times, even with 20+ years experience. Extremely unpaid.

Supply and demand. There is an oversupply of teachers, and lowering their pay is the logical solution to this. The fact that teachers are unionized is the only reason that this hasn't been allowed to work itself out already. If they want to be considered professionals (in the same category as doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc), they need to drop the union and negotiate individually. This would allow districts to promote based on competence rather than on years and # of pieces of paper hanging on the wall.

And say what you will, but most teachers I know put in 60+ hours a week. People love to argue this point, and I know some teachers don't, but I've seen it first hand more often than not.

Average that over a 12 month year. Most salaried folks I know average at least 50 hrs per week, 12 months a year. 60 hrs a week 9 months per year isn't jack shit.

Regarding the BCTF - who only really speaks for a small percentage of teachers according to my sister, I've seen what she pays in union dues, they're definitely not getting their money's worth.

Unions are an outdated drain on society. They should have been eradicated long ago.

That's the problem with cities, they're refuges for the weak, the fish that didn't evolve.

I don't want to google this - sounds like a thing that NSMB will be better at.

May 23, 2014, 8:25 p.m.
Posts: 10010
Joined: March 11, 2003

performance related merit increases on the table?

f-unions.

my mom was a teacher..

Is there a Vancouver in Taiwan?! I had no idea!!

Nothing sums up my life's achievements like my stuffed corpse, suplexing a cougar.

May 23, 2014, 8:27 p.m.
Posts: 12817
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Average that over a 12 month year. Most salaried folks I know average at least 50 hrs per week, 12 months a year. 60 hrs a week 9 months per year isn't jack shit.

Teachers don't get three months off every year, that's a myth. They spend those three months writing lesson plans and preparing materials.

www.natooke.com

May 23, 2014, 9:06 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I love how all this generation of teachers are screaming against the liberal government yet screamed even louder thirty years ago against the NDP government. I grew up in a teacher household and can say that teachers have it pretty damned good. Especially when it doesn't take much skill to get your teaching certificate and they are churning out new teachers by the thousands. (this is a problem) Sure there are obstacles but they are paid well, have a hell of a lot of time off and get to hang out with 17 yr old chicks.

Speaking of the numbers enrolled in programs to become a teacher. Looks like Uni's will start decreasing the spaces for students in the future.

http://queensjournal.ca/story/2013-06-23/news/teachers-college-lengthened/

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

May 23, 2014, 9:06 p.m.
Posts: 14415
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Teachers don't get three months off every year, that's a myth. They spend those three months writing lesson plans and preparing materials.

Maybe the first year they spend part of the two month summer holiday doing that, but they reuse as much as possible every year after. It's not like the curriculum for Grade 2 (etc) changes every year.

May 23, 2014, 9:13 p.m.
Posts: 12817
Joined: Jan. 27, 2003

Nonsense.

Maybe the first year they spend part of the two month summer holiday doing that, but they reuse as much as possible every year after.

Another myth.

www.natooke.com

May 23, 2014, 9:26 p.m.
Posts: 14415
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Another myth.

BCTF research on the matter.

https://www.bctf.ca/publications/ResearchReports.aspx?id=5572

One-quarter of B.C. teachers take two weeks of holidays or less in the summer.
More than one-third of teachers take three weeks of holidays or less.
The average teacher uses about 58% of her or his summer vacation as holidays.

About 7% of teachers spend part of the summer teaching summer school.
One in every 6 teachers (16.5%) works at a job other than teaching during the summer.
More than 1 in 5 teachers (22%) teach or do other paid work during at least part of the summer.
About 2% of teachers hold another job and teach summer school.

That said, most people entering the private sector aren't getting 2.5 months off in the summer where they could take a second job, and 2 weeks total vacation is pretty common for entry level.

May 23, 2014, 10:27 p.m.
Posts: 388
Joined: Feb. 11, 2004

A good idea, but very difficult to implement properly. Teaching is a lot more than students' letter grades and standardized test results, so how do we create effective and fair job performance standards?

THis is one attitude I've never understood. We do performance evaluations in my company and set salaries and bonuses in accordance. There are no standardized test, scores etc…why couldn't an administrator interview some select parents, students, sit in on a few classes, add that to any other data or info he/she has on the teacher and then they make their judgement call???

sign up for the nsmba here

May 23, 2014, 10:47 p.m.
Posts: 797
Joined: Feb. 16, 2010

THis is one attitude I've never understood. We do performance evaluations in my company and set salaries and bonuses in accordance. There are no standardized test, scores etc…why couldn't an administrator interview some select parents, students, sit in on a few classes, add that to any other data or info he/she has on the teacher and then they make their judgement call???

same here. our company had to go through a corporate perspective and culture shift. we used to think a graded, quantitative evaluation system would be no good. but in reality, we are our own worst judges sometimes when it comes to development.

this is a good thread. keep it going.

"You know what's wrong with Vancouver? You can't pee off of your own balcony without getting in trouble"
- Phil Gordon

May 23, 2014, 11:14 p.m.
Posts: 3368
Joined: Dec. 10, 2002

That said, most people entering the private sector aren't getting 2.5 months off in the summer where they could take a second job, and 2 weeks total vacation is pretty common for entry level.

How much time off did our MP's get? They get pretty regular raises that they give themselves and already make a pretty solid wage.

And they have everyone in a tizzy about the teachers.

"May a commune of gay, Marxist Muslim illegal immigrants use your tax dollars to open a drive-thru abortion clinic in your church."

May 23, 2014, 11:47 p.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: May 13, 2005

As soon as normal folk such as yourselves start bad-mouthing working class folk like teachers, the corporate bigwigs [HTML_REMOVED] politicians have you where they want you. Ever heard of divide [HTML_REMOVED] conquer? That's what is happening when the working class fight amongst themselves. Our attention [HTML_REMOVED] anger should be going towards the fat cats who vote themselves huge raises, not middle class people who are trying to make a go of it. As for people's statements about public sector employee's "huge pensions"…that money is deferred wages [HTML_REMOVED] costs the taxpayer nothing. Employers actually save money when their employees switch to a PSPP pension.

Well said. BC teachers I believe are some of the lowest paid in Canada, yet live in one of the most expensive provinces. Sure 3 months off a year is a nice perk, but when your responsible for minding 30+ kids a day, 5 days a week and sometimes after school, this time off is completely warranted. You couldn't pay me enough money to do that job, you have to be a pretty patient person.

May 24, 2014, 7:04 a.m.
Posts: 409
Joined: May 29, 2008

We've all been to school, therefore we must all be experts on the needs of teachers and students within a school. Right?

Maybe we can start diagnosing our own ailments. We've all been to a hospital or doctor's office, so we must be experts there too.

That'll save the government enough money for another 18+% raise. Not to mention they have set the precedent that they're beyond the reach of the Supreme Court.

If you want a more productive province long-term, the way to get there is via improved public education. The U.S. already dropped the ball and we'll be next unless we smarten up.

I hope the BCTF dig in their heels and I hope that the rest of the province has enough common sense to see the bigger picture and support them.

May 24, 2014, 8:02 a.m.
Posts: 7566
Joined: March 7, 2004

As the son of a teacher (not BCTF) and the father of a child about to enter kindergarten, I fully support the teachers and they deserve every penny they are paid.

May 24, 2014, 10:03 a.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: Dec. 10, 2013

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. When it is time for your performance review, or are renewing your current contract, you say, "Yes, I have been working hard and making positive contributions, but please, whatever you do, do not give me a raise."

As far as the starting salary grid goes, that is the wage once you have a contract to teach in a classroom. Teachers have their own "Articling" or "Paying Their Dues" time known as being a Teacher Teaching on Call. You know them as Substitute Teachers or Subs and you know how you treated the Sub when they taught your class. Beginning teachers can expect to sub for 2-5 years before seeing a pay cheque like the bottom of the grid.

"Let's give them a choice: wage increase or class size and compostion." In the late 90's teachers were given that choice and they chose class size and composition language over wages. In 2002 that language was stripped from the contract. The BC Supreme Court has twice ruled the stripping undemocratic and unconstitutional. Given the choice again, I personally will choose class size and composition. I am walking out on Monday because I want my constitutional right to bargain working conditions (class size and composition) respected by government.

Working only 9 months a year with great wages and short days sounds like a "Dream Job!" So, why aren't you a teacher?

:canada:

May 24, 2014, 12:08 p.m.
Posts: 15175
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

So having two parents as teachers, and my sister is also a teacher, I can tell you this first hand. Class size and special needs help is HUGE issue. It's severely effecting kids educations, especially in the elementary and middle school levels. My Mom in last year of teaching had five special needs kinds in her class of 34ish students,.

The difference between a class size of 30 and 36 in the modern class situ where there are often 5 or 6 special needs kids IS the teach can not do the job as they are suposed to

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