Basically im still with Leigh on this one. IMO Science will never reach the point of being able to define wether there is a God or not. You may have a lot of faith in science but it is NEVER going to disprove that there is a God. Afterall i believe God created EVERYTHING which does include science, he has control over EVERYTHING so why would he make it easy on us and give us solid proof. Then there would be no faith! As a christian i dont need proof like Leigh said. I have had a tough couple of years and i believe that God has helped me through them with things like giving me great friends, familly and general support. Also when im reading the bible things pop up that are exactly what im looking for (your going to have a field-day on that one Gimped ;) ) I seriously hope you arent trying to change anyones mind because none of the 'weak' people you talked about earlier are going to loose faith. Being a christian is hard, and i wouldnt be doing it if I didnt have reason to. Its that simple.

Originally posted by Big_Air_Smite
Also when im reading the bible things pop up that are exactly what im looking for

I'm sure when Charlie Manson first heard "The White Album" a lot of things popped up that were exactly what he was looking for. During my early twenties I studied a lot of different religions and philosophies. Nearly all of them had points which I really agreed with at the time. Probably the closest I got to actually accepting anyone else's philosophy were the works of Friedrich Nietche and The Satanic Bible by Anton LeVey [side note- contrary to popular belief, Satanism has nothing to do with worshipping the advisarial Devil of Christianity, it's more like the application of logic to modern circumstances] But after awhile I found things even in those philosophies which didn't make sense. What's that quote by Groucho Marx? - " Any club that would have people like me as a member I want no part of ."

**

I seriously hope you arent trying to change anyones mind because none of the 'weak' people you talked about earlier are going to loose faith.

**

I seriously hope not either. Although this discussion is amusing and at times thought provoking, it's basically an irresistable force meets an immovable object. For as long as mankind has exsisted there has always been a distinct delieation between the unconscious masses and the conscious indidual. Althought it's the twentieth century and you'd think mankind would have evolved to the point where people can detect the smell of rotting fish, the simple fact of the matter is that no matter how much evidence is produced to the contrary, most people will continue down the path of un-reason.

I don't understand a lot of human behavior: Why do humans consciously overpopulate nearly every area they inhabit? Why do they willingly take poisons such as nicotine, alcohol, etc into thier bodies? Why do they strive for such supperficial goals such as the acceptance of others thus making themselves slaves to others? Why do they surrender their will to the idea of an omnipotent being who watches over their every move? I don't know the answers to any of these, but what I do know is that trying to convince people to question thier behavior is like trying to convince the sun not to rise. The world can be a very harsh place - some people depend on themselves to deal with it, many more depend on the idea of a higher power.

I hope I haven't depressed any of you too much. If I have, here's a little "pick me up"

meh create a bike cult.

GrimniR, you are one bright cookie. There are some very funny analagies there!!! I'm pissed that I didn't think of those.

As I have said numerous times, all reasonable evidence in our history points to the non-existance of a god(s), in part because the lack of ANYTHING to support it (other than people's thoughts and stories). That's pretty close to proof for anyone.

Would you admit to the possibility that maybe god was an invention of man's over-active imagination? Your point is that he controls all of us and the planet, determines our thought processes, etc, etc. Will you admit that it is possible that this statement is not true? I for one have complete freedom from god and religion, as do many. There is not, as you would like to believe, a god telling me or you to say these things. Will you admit that there is a possibilty that this also true? I can tell your god to go to hell (pardon the pun). Will I be punished? NO! Not even 500 years ago it was believed that if you stated something like that, you would burn forever in hell (if not before someone burned you at the stake). Does that sound like fear mongering that was instilled within mankind's psyche by the threat of death? Will you admit that is a possible reason for the act of following a religion? Children were taught to openly follow religion, until it became so ingrained within them, or they would be executed by the church/state. That's a fact.

I suspect that you follow christianity because your forefathers faith was passed down through the generations to you. Do you accept other gods? I don't only mean allah, buddha, and the more practiced religious sect, but gods like zeus and thor? What about the gods of our Native Americans, or the pagans of your country's past? The gods of various tribes who "accept" human sacrifice? Is your god better or different from them? Please explain.

Bear with me…

The vastness of the universe is immense. We have only small clues as to how many stars are within the trillions of galaxies out there. I'm sure that we are not the only planet with a livable atmosphere, in all those solar systems and galaxies. Whether life has evolved to what we are, or more/less, we don't know. On this one little planet called earth, there is one intelligent humanoid species inhabiting it. These humans have been here for approximately 1-2 million years of earth's 5 billion years (approx.) of existance. This infinitesimal amount of time and space is a mere grain of sand on a beach.

Given that as our best observations to date of our history and the history of the universe, do you still think that there is an invisible being that controls us? Do you actually believe that a god in this humanistic form has assembled all that we know? Do you think that an invisible creature made the planets revolve around a star and that the 3rd one has been fortunate to has a livable atmosphere? Do you actually believe that?

Are we (the humans) the only ones to have a god? What of the rest of the animals of this earth? Does the good bacteria come along for the journey to the clouds? Does the bad bacteria get the boot to eternal damnation? Remember that word I mentioned before…egotism? What about the dinosaurs, will they await our return to the pearly gaits? What will happen to that flattened out rat I saw on the road the other day? How about the single-cell ameoba that has just formed in a swamp on a planet halfway across the universe. Does it go past purgatory and meet us for the ultimate rest stop? I don't think so. Why is god a male? Could the reason be that men had all the control in ancient times? The god they invented thus had to be a man because women were considered inferior. That doesn't sound made up to you? Where women controlled the roost - there were female gods. Your god sounds like a party trick.

With all that said you have two choices:

1. This mythical creature, god, has made everything in the universe and thus owns everything. His only rental agreement with us (none of the other animals mind you, and yes contrary to belief - we are animals too) is that only we have to worship him and if we're good enough, only WE get to go to heaven. If we are bad, we burn. That doesn't sound fair.

2. This humanoid animal with the large brain who can think abstractly from other animals has invented the mythical creature named god in order to explain the world in which he lives. The happy feeling of faith is nothing more than pleasing chemicals and neurons firing within pathways in our brain. Just as eveything we experience and learn, new electrical impulses control how our brains function.

Do you believe in creation - Adam and Eve as our parents? Do you believe that this happened 6000 years ago? It was written in this bible you speak of so highly, so it must be true like the rest of the stories you say are. If the earth is only 6000 years old, then who were the dinosaurs? What to do with radio-carbon dating and the age of rocks? YOUR THEORY SEEMS TO BE FLAWED. How about the apocalypse? When do we ride that wave?

There is hardly any difference in your religion and any cult. The only difference is that christianity fools a lot more people. There takes only a little insight to see that it's our invention and only lives within the chemical reactions within our brain. But as GrimniR says, "…no matter how much evidence is produced to the contrary, most people will continue down the path of un-reason." =pure gold.

this discussion is getting really in depth and further involved than i have the energy to get into right now, but just one thing to rebutt before i sleep:

"Do you believe in creation - Adam and Eve as our parents? Do you believe that this happened 6000 years ago? It was written in this bible you speak of so highly, so it must be true like the rest of the stories you say are. If the earth is only 6000 years old, then who were the dinosaurs? What to do with radio-carbon dating and the age of rocks? YOUR THEORY SEEMS TO BE FLAWED. How about the apocalypse? When do we ride that wave?"

obviously the world isnt 6000 years old. only a fool would believe so. scientific evidence PROVES (not theorizes) contrary. but the point is that everything is all relative (speaking of age and time here in particular). ppl in the bible lived over 500 yrs, how feasible is that especially without the aid of modern medecine? everything is not in black and white, you take from the Bible what you will, i for one do not believe that everyword should be disected to the letter. there are important lessons to be learned, lessons which do not require such clearcut definitions.

Originally posted by GrimniR
I hope I haven't depressed any of you too much. If I have, here's a little "pick me up"

Pretty funny site. I liked this part:

Test your Bible knowledge by taking one of these quizzes!

God's Favorite Ways To Kill
7 Real Deadly Sins Quiz
The Bible Fact Quiz
The License to Sin Quiz
The Wrath of God Quiz II
God vs. Allah Quiz
Bible Sex Quiz II
How Does God Spot A Christian?
Bible Punishment Quiz II
The Bible Diet Quiz
The Bible Slavery Quiz
Bible Anagram Flash Quiz
New "test" ament Quiz
Role of Women Bible Quiz
Creation Science Quiz
New Testament Damnation Quiz
The Wrath of God Quiz
Bible Punishment Quiz
Bible Sex Quiz
What Did Jesus Say?

There is nothing that science can do to prove there's a god, but there is plenty that can prove that there isn't. So the conclusion that rationally-minded people can draw from that hypothysis is that it probably doesn't exist. Irrational people will look for guidance in magical thinking without any process of elimination.

UFO, You have just helped prove my points that there isn't a god. There is not a religious minded person who can dispute what science can reasonably prove or disprove. When you can not come up with the answers to back up your theory, then what are you guys clinging to? There's many, many stories and anecdotes in the bible that are as foolish as Genesis. If one story, probably the most important one, is that incredible, then what's to say for the rest? If creation didn't happen, then how can you believe in god? Did he not make the world? Are you saying that the creation of man by your god is false? Then what else is? Could it be possible that man created the bible for and of himself? Yes, of course!

UFO, science is all about disecting everything and trying to disprove itself. Whether you like it or not, your belief in god is lumped in with scientific dissection. Everything in this universe is lumped into science. It is one of those regions that we can not as easily prove as we can disprove (God is very easily disproved with rational, insightful, realistic, physical, mental, and emotional evidence). All of religion does not question itself whatsoever with any amount of credibility. If their arguement includes "I belief it so it must be true" is all they can come up with, then there isn't a debate on the issue.

I am by no means a scientist, but if you have no understanding of scientific theory and how it works then I suggest you stop trying to rationalize god and religion on a public forum like this.

My suggestion to you is to honestly question why you believe in god, do you actually need that belief (since it all starts within your mind (hint), and what you crave that can be answered with everyday science. My goal is to make people rethink the god complex.

Read my last post thoroughly and try to disprove anything that I have questioned. Please.

Big Air Smite:

Tell me how you know without a doubt that god created and controls everything? What do you have to back that claim up with? Or is it possible that you have subliminally learned this from your ancestors and it has become so ingrained that you believe it?

Originally posted by gimped
**UFO, science is all about disecting everything and trying to disprove itself. Whether you like it or not, your belief in god is lumped in with scientific dissection. Everything in this universe is lumped into science. It is one of those regions that we can not as easily prove as we can disprove (God is very easily disproved with rational, insightful, realistic, physical, mental, and emotional evidence). All of religion does not question itself whatsoever with any amount of credibility. If their arguement includes "I belief it so it must be true" is all they can come up with, then there isn't a debate on the issue.

I am by no means a scientist, but if you have no understanding of scientific theory and how it works then I suggest you stop trying to rationalize god and religion on a public forum like this.
**

yes science is all about dissecting. with regards to what we spoke about earlier about man's egotistical nature. why is it that we believe we can scientifically figure out how everything works? what is our drive to accomplish this? my understanding about the scientific theory is clear enough, and that is what leads me to believe in religion. many things scientific are theorized, and many theories are just that; based on assumptions that were based on other assumptions. the odds of all the necessary steps involved in evolution from the early prokaryote to the modern multi-cell complexes is so staggering, so unbelievable, that i dont understand how accepting those odds would be easier than accepting a god.

theories are ideas that may or may not be the way. schools teach it as if there is no way around it. if this were the case, why is it still a theory then? why is the theory of evolution a theory of evolution and not the principle of evolution?

im not helping you prove your point in anyway, if that's what you think, you have taken what i said out of context. everything is not black and white, you have to read the Bible for yourself, and take what's important out of it. much like Shakespearean literature, if you just read the words, it doesnt make sense. you are taking it word for word, and its not making sense to you. if creation didnt happen, you wouldnt be here, nor would i, and we wouldnt be having this conversation. you cant make something out of nothing (as explained by the theory of conservation of energy and mass).

i guess in the end, i take a different approach as you. until science disproves without a doubt that there is no god of any kind, i'll still believe in my God. for you gimped, you will not believe until science proves that a god exists.

The one thing that makes acceptance of God as "the alpha and the omega" hard for many individuals is that we have a start/finish mentality. There's a start of life, and and end of life. Start of day, end of day. Etc., etc.

How is it possible to understand or believe that there is no start or finish to God? How can any human comprehend this?

download:
george carlin-religion
george carlin-ten commandments

I personally do not believe in the invisible man that lives in the sky. heres something, if church's are tax exempt then i can create a psuedo atheist meeting ground and become tax exempt?

well religion is a giant heap od hot steaming poo. it exists soely as a way to control people into conforming and behaving properly. they found a toumb of some egyptian "god", well that is stone, and by your standard more concrete than some scripts therefore there ae egyptian gods too, umm no. ok look at religion this way, what does every religion have a set of guidelines to follo win order to get a prize. be it heaven or whatever. same as the easter bunny and you parents. act well and you get candy. well is it too hard to fathom it all did start as a way to control ppl? in prehistoric times isnt it possible that a ruler created some form of religion to control his people into behaving so thed get to have an afterlife? peopl in this period would have been incompetent enough to believe it thus starting religion as we know it. it worked and soon enough everyone belied the rubbish including the suceeding rulers, because they didnt know any better. all it is is a system of rewards to control people. and hey i like it keeps the general populus happy, and servile.

Science disproves more than it proves things. Everything is not concrete. Do I have to explain this again?

1) Yes science consists of assumptions of course. Science assumes there isn't a god because there is nothing to back it up. Then it assumes that life started in another way. Next…

2) Our universe is extremely complex, yet the odds of organisms evolving to survive has been proven. You can see it in probably every species. Why do penguins have wings? Well I'm sure at one point they needed them! Accepting that is much easier than accepting a master creator that made it all because evolution exists, creation does not. Next…

3) Theory of evolution: Like I have been explaining all the while, science is based on: OUR MOST REASONABLE THEORIES AT THAT TIME. We can not entirely prove that we evolved from atoms, but the most credible EVIDENCE supports this theory. There is NO evidence of a mythical creature. Period. That is why it is not called the principle of evolution. Pay attention.

4) I live my life in shades of grey, but the bible is simply a story book. Most, if not all, published scientific theories with any amount of credibility is far more sensical than anything in the bible. Do you actually believe that a conciousness made all that we know?

5) I'll try this one more time… Science can easily disprove there is a god without reasonable doubt. Why reasonable? Because science constanty challenges itself. There is as much credibility in the tooth fairy. I'll explain it again. There is nothing more than human conciousness supporting the theory of creation and the belief in god. It does not exist anywhere else. Science consists of elements like chemistry, physics, and mathematics, which is concrete - you can hold the results in your hand. Therefore, science has more evidence to back up it's theories. Therefore, why would any rational human being believe in deities (caused by chemicals in the brain) with what we have to draw upon to make conclusions?

6) If science could prove there is a god, I'll be the first one to admit that I was wrong. Since science can not prove there is a god, but rationally theorize everything else in the universe, I'll keep on truckin'.

7) Switch, research scientific theory a little more. Or just go back and read what I have posted numerous times. I'm sure if you don't know how to interpret how the world /universe works, then I'm sure you'll write back. Before you do, make sure that we have not already disproved your statement.

"in prehistoric times isnt it possible that a ruler created some form of religion to control his people into behaving so thed get to have an afterlife?"
- why is this so hard to understand?

I am still waiting for the god squad to answer my questions in my other post. As you can see, they are still skirting questions that they have trouble answering. The otherside (science) has explained numerous times how the god theory is flawed, yet there isn't anything they have said that can flaw the simple theories I have put forth. This is because there is nothing to back their theories up. I can also say "I believe in science so it must be true", but I would be doing myself a disservice in saying that. I am pitting realistic, rational processes up against feelings, emotions, and belief systems.

Now where are those answers?

gimped,

Did you ever have someone close to you die? Like a father, mother, or grandparent?