Olson on death bed?

I think all Canadians should be required to put 2 years into serving in our armed forces.

Talk amongst yourselves.

So if there is a video, then that changes your stance?

My stance on the death penalty?? Hardly. Not sure how evidence that OBL was (or wasn't) executed could have any bearing on the larger picture of one's opinion on the morality of capital punishment.

Video may or may not change my opinion on whether there was an execution, or if OBL raised a weapon and a marine acted in self-defence. Right now, only those in the room and a few high level politicians know for sure. Of course, any released video could just as easily be doctored …

Any argument in favour of capital punishment boils down to one of two things: vengeance and economics. Killing someone to save money is an immoral act. Vengeance serves no purpose.

And to all you christians out there:

1. Judge not lest ye be judged - Matthew 7:1

2. Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord - Romans 12:19

It blows my mind that christians so gleefully support capital punishment when everything in their belief system opposes taking a life.

Kn.

I'll counter with Exodus 21:12, Genesis 6:9, and Revelation 13:10.

How about we buy one less fighter jet and invest the billion dollars saved into better social programs so that people have less temptation to turn to crime in the first place?

Kn.

Do you think Olson was tempted into his crimes?

Do you think Olson was tempted into his crimes?

Do you think Olson was just naturally bad, or were there other problems in his family and upbringing that perhaps messed up his brain. An abused child often becomes an abuser.

Maybe he just chose to become a psychotic … you know, like homosexuals choose to be gay.

Kn.

Do you think Olson was just naturally bad, or were there other problems in his family and upbringing that perhaps messed up his brain. An abused child often becomes an abuser.

Maybe he just chose to become a psychotic … you know, like homosexuals choose to be gay.

Kn.

I'm impressed. Most people need two separate posts to contradict themselves.

Do you think Olson was just naturally bad, or were there other problems in his family and upbringing that perhaps messed up his brain. An abused child often becomes an abuser.

Maybe he just chose to become a psychotic … you know, like homosexuals choose to be gay.

Kn.

Nice work changing the subject and not answering the question. I wasn't trying to be a dick I was actually curious. Your statement suggested that he had no other choice but to kill children; that he couldn't help himself and turned to crime out of necessity.

I think Olson had genetic predispositions to be violent and probably had problems early in life. On the other hand there are lots of people who are abused and don't turn out to be abusers. They make a choice not to be, he could have made that choice but didn't.

Don't start the homosexual comparison. I'm not some nut job spewing scriptures. Choosing to be attracted to a certain gender has nothing to do with choosing to murder children.

I'm impressed. Most people need two separate posts to contradict themselves.

Your sarcasm meter is FUBAR.

Kn.

Nice work changing the subject and not answering the question. I wasn't trying to be a dick I was actually curious. Your statement suggested that he had no other choice but to kill children; that he couldn't help himself and turned to crime out of necessity.

I didn't change the subject and I did answer the question. So-called "genetic predisposition" toward violence does not guarantee an outcome. There are plenty of studies/examples of children with similar genetics - one becomes violent, the other becomes successful.

I most certainly did NOT in any way suggest that olson had no other choice - fuck, what an insane conclusion to draw from my posts. I stated, that in the larger picture, it is possible to reduce crime by reducing poverty and funding programs that break the cycle of abuse that tends to perpetuate itself.

Kn.

I didn't change the subject and I did answer the question. So-called "genetic predisposition" toward violence does not guarantee an outcome. There are plenty of studies/examples of children with similar genetics - one becomes violent, the other becomes successful.

I most certainly did NOT in any way suggest that olson had no other choice - fuck, what an insane conclusion to draw from my posts. I stated, that in the larger picture, it is possible to reduce crime by reducing poverty and funding programs that break the cycle of abuse that tends to perpetuate itself.

Kn.

You answered my question with another question.

If studies show that some people turn violent and some don't, all the funding and programs you could come up with may not have changed the outcome of his life. He still had a choice regardless of his upbringing.

A shitty childhood in not an excuse for killing that many children. The "boohoo" I had a shitty childhood card is played too often. If he turned himself in after the first kid and said "I'm fucked up and need help" you're dealing with someone who is still fundamentally human and worth saving.

I didn't change the subject and I did answer the question. So-called "genetic predisposition" toward violence does not guarantee an outcome. There are plenty of studies/examples of children with similar genetics - one becomes violent, the other becomes successful.

I most certainly did NOT in any way suggest that olson had no other choice - fuck, what an insane conclusion to draw from my posts. I stated, that in the larger picture, it is possible to reduce crime by reducing poverty and funding programs that break the cycle of abuse that tends to perpetuate itself.

Kn.

I'm with Ken and everybody else who made a good argument against the death penalty, as a government/legally sanctioned form of punishment.

There's really no good way to justify it. It doesn't act as a deterrent; the research is definitive. Most crimes, especially the more serious crimes (homicide, assault, sexual assault, etc.) are committed in a high state of emotional arousal - and rational thought, which includes thinking of consequences, is absent in high states of emotional arousal.

Having said that, if anyone ever laid a finger on my daughter, I don't think I'd be able to NOT do something to the motherfucker (if I knew who it was). There'd be no limit to the retribution I'd want to lay down. And I know it still wouldn't make me or her feel any better.

As for Olson and his ilk (i.e., psychopaths), there's really very little that can be done from a rehabilitation point of view. I know - I work in the system as a psychologist. Psychopaths appear to be born without a conscience, empathy, compassion, etc. They simply cannot understand those concepts, and can't be taught. Because of this, they will almost always be at high risk to reoffend. Psychopaths are quite rare in the population but are vastly overrepresented in the criminal justice system. The dumb ones are the ones we see in prison, where they'll likely spend most of their lives. The smart ones are the bankers, politicians, and corporate executives who are robbing us blind (with their non-certifiably-psychopathic, but equally as greedy and self-centreed colleagues). They could not give a flying fuck about the rest of the world - all that matters to them is them. No amount of protesting, legal threats, appeals for social responsibility, etc. is going to change them.

Now, having said that, there are psychopaths (more commonly referred to as sociopaths) who do seem to be a product of their environment. There is hope for them, as long as there not too broken and they're somewhat motivated to get it together. Same with the majority of other non-psychopathic criminals, most of whom come from fucked backgrounds and have adopted a them-against-the-world approach to life. Frankly, they're a bunch of powerless, fragile-egoed, entitled losers who feel the world owes them something because of the shit that they've had to endure.

EDIT: I should add, gang violence is the outlier - but then again, they're taking care of themselves.

You answered my question with another question.

If studies show that some people turn violent and some don't, all the funding and programs you could come up with may not have changed the outcome of his life. He still had a choice regardless of his upbringing.

A shitty childhood in not an excuse for killing that many children. The "boohoo" I had a shitty childhood card is played too often. If he turned himself in after the first kid and said "I'm fucked up and need help" you're dealing with someone who is still fundamentally human and worth saving.

Totally missed the point … but taking it down that road is brilliant. Truly brilliant.

Kn.

As for Olson and his ilk (i.e., psychopaths), there's really very little that can be done from a rehabilitation point of view. I know - I work in the system as a psychologist.

Any idea on what the stats say about pedophilia and social class? Poor people more likely to be mass murders and child rapists than rich people? Because some serial killers weren't exactly poor.

Any idea on what the stats say about pedophilia and social class? Poor people more likely to be mass murders and child rapists than rich people? Because some serial killers weren't exactly poor.

Yes - pedophilia crosses all social classes. But not all child molesters are pedophiles. In fact, many aren't. Pedophiles are strictly defined as people who have a sexual preference for children. Many child molestation crimes are simply crimes of opportunity.

Generally speaking, most of the criminals that get caught are the dumb ones - the smart ones avoid detection. Although intelligence is correlated with class, that correlation isn't that strong. In other words, there are plenty of very intelligent people born into the low social class, and lots of fucking dumb-as-doorknobs rich people. But the people in the lower social class have the cards stacked against them in ways that the upper class can never possibly understand.

Keep in mind that when you're talking about serial killers, you're talking about the most extreme cases - they are very, very rare. For the vast majority of criminals, social class is an extremely important factor (i.e., all that comes along with growing up in a non-privileged and/or abusive environment).

Despite what all the right-wingers want us to think, we're not all on an equal playing field. It's amazing that some people turn out ok (i.e., happy, productive members of society, etc.), given what they've lived through as children.