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How much do you know about the history of Indigenous people under Canadian rule?

July 25, 2022, 6:52 p.m.
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

July 26, 2022, 9:57 a.m.
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

For the moment, but earlier it seemed to be the church that was dodging their role so it is good the church has the heat on them for a while.  In a way, this is more important because ultimately the church is only compelled to act due to public pressure, but the government is forced by legal decisions.  

Either way, I have little faith in the Catholic church to do a whole lot besides thoughts and prayers.  The current Pope is the best one yet, but he is still the pope.

July 28, 2022, 1:38 p.m.
Posts: 13216
Joined: Nov. 24, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: syncro

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

For the moment, but earlier it seemed to be the church that was dodging their role so it is good the church has the heat on them for a while.  In a way, this is more important because ultimately the church is only compelled to act due to public pressure, but the government is forced by legal decisions.  

Either way, I have little faith in the Catholic church to do a whole lot besides thoughts and prayers.  The current Pope is the best one yet, but he is still the pope.

Given the way the Catholic church has dealt with the past and present abuse of children and related politics over here in Germany, for example, I am certain that the whole event was a public relations stunt. I would be surprised if it should turn out any different.

July 31, 2022, 9:13 a.m.
Posts: 36
Joined: July 16, 2020

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: syncro

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

For the moment, but earlier it seemed to be the church that was dodging their role so it is good the church has the heat on them for a while. In a way, this is more important because ultimately the church is only compelled to act due to public pressure, but the government is forced by legal decisions.

Either way, I have little faith in the Catholic church to do a whole lot besides thoughts and prayers. The current Pope is the best one yet, but he is still the pope.

The goc is not actually forced by legal decision in practice. I worked for GOC for 11 years on Indigenous files and there are multiple legal decisions against GOC, but with little weight for implementation. The courts often make rulings but then "leave it up to gov" to define and determine how to actually implement the decision in concert with the Indigenous group. When it comes to resource sharing like fish, the only way to allow Indigenous groups more access to fish, is to "take away" from the non-Indigenous commercial sector...which DFO never wants to do.

To say the GOC drags its feet would be an understatement. How to define "moderate livelihood" for east coast lobster fishery is a perfect example. The Mi’kmaw right to fish for the purposes of earning a moderate livelihood was made via SCC decision 23 years ago and DFO has been twiddling their thumbs for decades. There is very little recourse the Indigenous groups other than going back to court, often a resulting in courts saying "hey we made our decision now you guys go figure it out".


 Last edited by: meloroast on July 31, 2022, 12:01 p.m., edited 3 times in total.
July 31, 2022, 11:32 a.m.
Posts: 15971
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: syncro

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

For the moment, but earlier it seemed to be the church that was dodging their role so it is good the church has the heat on them for a while.  In a way, this is more important because ultimately the church is only compelled to act due to public pressure, but the government is forced by legal decisions.  

Either way, I have little faith in the Catholic church to do a whole lot besides thoughts and prayers.  The current Pope is the best one yet, but he is still the pope.

they keep getting popes  that are so fucking old they should be retired, this guy is 85 and in a wheel chair

Aug. 2, 2022, 9:18 a.m.
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: meloroast

The goc is not actually forced by legal decision in practice. I worked for GOC for 11 years on Indigenous files and there are multiple legal decisions against GOC, but with little weight for implementation. The courts often make rulings but then "leave it up to gov" to define and determine how to actually implement the decision in concert with the Indigenous group. When it comes to resource sharing like fish, the only way to allow Indigenous groups more access to fish, is to "take away" from the non-Indigenous commercial sector...which DFO never wants to do.

To say the GOC drags its feet would be an understatement. How to define "moderate livelihood" for east coast lobster fishery is a perfect example. The Mi’kmaw right to fish for the purposes of earning a moderate livelihood was made via SCC decision 23 years ago and DFO has been twiddling their thumbs for decades. There is very little recourse the Indigenous groups other than going back to court, often a resulting in courts saying "hey we made our decision now you guys go figure it out".

As slow as it may be, there is still more incentive to actually do something than there is for the Catholic Church.  I also think when legal decisions are made using terminology like "moderate livelihood" they are setting the system up for failure.  There is almost no way to define that.  Personally, I think any commercial activity should be managed as one and not divided.  There are a large number of indigenous fishermen in the "non-indigenous fishery" anyway, so their share could be increased by buying licenses from the open market for the various bands without taking the fishery from anyone, but that is a whole other discussion.  I think food fishing should be managed completely separately, but it needs to be managed.

Aug. 3, 2022, 8:30 a.m.
Posts: 963
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: Mic

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: syncro

The "apology" was light on substance and seemed to be said more as an individual member of the Catholic church, not the church itself. However, there apparently is more to come and that will really determine the extent of this apology and what steps the church is willing to take to try and make some amends for what happened. I think one of the other unfortunate things is that this is taking some heat off of the federal government and our own responsibility in trying to correct the wrongs that have happened and more importantly, wrongs that continue to happen.

For the moment, but earlier it seemed to be the church that was dodging their role so it is good the church has the heat on them for a while. In a way, this is more important because ultimately the church is only compelled to act due to public pressure, but the government is forced by legal decisions.

Either way, I have little faith in the Catholic church to do a whole lot besides thoughts and prayers. The current Pope is the best one yet, but he is still the pope.

Given the way the Catholic church has dealt with the past and present abuse of children and related politics over here in Germany, for example, I am certain that the whole event was a public relations stunt. I would be surprised if it should turn out any different.

Mic, exactly. There is a alot around the Catholic Church and Christianity's activities at least the the eastern half of Canada have been shall we say conveniently forgotten. Or thing where done to help them become forgotten.


 Last edited by: Endurimil on Aug. 3, 2022, 8:31 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 7, 2022, 10:49 a.m.
Posts: 36
Joined: July 16, 2020

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: meloroast

The goc is not actually forced by legal decision in practice. I worked for GOC for 11 years on Indigenous files and there are multiple legal decisions against GOC, but with little weight for implementation. The courts often make rulings but then "leave it up to gov" to define and determine how to actually implement the decision in concert with the Indigenous group. When it comes to resource sharing like fish, the only way to allow Indigenous groups more access to fish, is to "take away" from the non-Indigenous commercial sector...which DFO never wants to do.

To say the GOC drags its feet would be an understatement. How to define "moderate livelihood" for east coast lobster fishery is a perfect example. The Mi’kmaw right to fish for the purposes of earning a moderate livelihood was made via SCC decision 23 years ago and DFO has been twiddling their thumbs for decades. There is very little recourse the Indigenous groups other than going back to court, often a resulting in courts saying "hey we made our decision now you guys go figure it out".

As slow as it may be, there is still more incentive to actually do something than there is for the Catholic Church. I also think when legal decisions are made using terminology like "moderate livelihood" they are setting the system up for failure. There is almost no way to define that. Personally, I think any commercial activity should be managed as one and not divided. There are a large number of indigenous fishermen in the "non-indigenous fishery" anyway, so their share could be increased by buying licenses from the open market for the various bands without taking the fishery from anyone, but that is a whole other discussion. I think food fishing should be managed completely separately, but it needs to be managed.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Food, social, ceremonial (FSC) fisheries are and have been managed separate from commercial for decades. It always leaved Indigenous groups far behind so saying "hey just go buy licenses on the open market" is not a solution. It is what most executives at DFO also see as the solution, but that playing field is not levelled so it's basically an easy way to just keep status quo going (which has historically always allowed those 'with' to continue gaining more while most FNs in BC continue to struggle in poverty). 

As one example of complexities of FSC vs commercial...often, due to migratory timing, commercial sector fishes a stock BEFORE FSC. Even though FSC has constitutional priority. Think herring and salmon. This means DFO estimates stock size (almost always wrong), commercial sector fishes, then oops, actually the returns are smaller so FSC fishery gets little to nothing. But DFO doesn't want to impose more conservative returns due to industry pressure. Who loses out? I wonder...

And there is a definite need for a 'livelihood' based commercial fishery for Indigenous groups, primarily to support basic community needs (that also includes cultural elements) and alleviate the current poverty model (that also taxes the system). Yes, managing the commercial sector "as one" is easier. Especially from a "white" or colonial lens. Indigenous communities do not view the fisheries in the same way. So if we actually want to support reconciliation, it has to include an alternate view of the world, not just the old colonial ways.

Anyway, it's very complex. I've worked in it for almost 20 years and I wish these complexities were communicated to the masses more often. Only way to reconcile is to let go and allow change to permeate the system. We can't continue as we've been doing and expect fish and licenses to just show up. They are very limited. Even with GOC throwing money at FNs, they is always going to be the challenge of limited entry licenses/quotas and of course, fish.


 Last edited by: meloroast on Aug. 7, 2022, 10:53 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 7, 2022, 11:58 a.m.
Posts: 15971
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

I used to just text Walter to order sockeye, he ain't comin up river for 5 but he will for  75, split it with friends

Aug. 8, 2022, 9:36 a.m.
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Food, social, ceremonial (FSC) fisheries are and have been managed separate from commercial for decades. It always leaved Indigenous groups far behind so saying "hey just go buy licenses on the open market" is not a solution. It is what most executives at DFO also see as the solution, but that playing field is not levelled so it's basically an easy way to just keep status quo going (which has historically always allowed those 'with' to continue gaining more while most FNs in BC continue to struggle in poverty).

I know it is not simple, but IMO, any fish that has been caught for resale has to go through the same commercial fishery. Especially salmon. I would argue that the food and ceremonial fishery is not managed in any meaningful way, but that aside, the commercial market has helped indigenous communities and I would like to know why you think it leaves them behind. I didn't say "hey, go buy licenses on the open market". The government has a lot of control over the licensing market and could buy them back and transfer them to indigenous communities for example. Or they could create an indigenous license. There are definitely indigenous success stories in BC fishing, like James Walkus, so I think this is a good model. There are a lot of isolated communities on the coast that don't have access to any other industries and they almost all have fishing skills.

As one example of complexities of FSC vs commercial...often, due to migratory timing, commercial sector fishes a stock BEFORE FSC. Even though FSC has constitutional priority. Think herring and salmon. This means DFO estimates stock size (almost always wrong), commercial sector fishes, then oops, actually the returns are smaller so FSC fishery gets little to nothing. But DFO doesn't want to impose more conservative returns due to industry pressure. Who loses out? I wonder...

The commercial fishery catches fish in the straits before they get to the rivers so there is no easy solution here other than better forecasting, but again, this is why having first nations as a larger part of the commercial fishery just makes sense to me.

And there is a definite need for a 'livelihood' based commercial fishery for Indigenous groups, primarily to support basic community needs (that also includes cultural elements) and alleviate the current poverty model (that also taxes the system). Yes, managing the commercial sector "as one" is easier. Especially from a "white" or colonial lens. Indigenous communities do not view the fisheries in the same way. So if we actually want to support reconciliation, it has to include an alternate view of the world, not just the old colonial ways.

No, it is much more than "easier", it is crucial to managing a single resource. If there are 2 separate groups taking from the same stock of fish and one group has priority you might as well just buy back the licenses from the non-native fishermen now because it won't be worth it for them anymore. It is already a feast or famine industry, but at least they have a shot at whatever DFO decides the allotment is. DFO decisions on the allotment have to be made last minute so by the time a fisherman knows if there will be a catch that year they have already purchased gear, fixed up their boats, paid all the license fees, hired a deckhand, etc. Put yourself in their gumboots. Reconciliation in this form puts the burden on non-native fishermen so that the rest of the country can pretend they gave something up.

Anyway, it's very complex. I've worked in it for almost 20 years and I wish these complexities were communicated to the masses more often. Only way to reconcile is to let go and allow change to permeate the system. We can't continue as we've been doing and expect fish and licenses to just show up. They are very limited. Even with GOC throwing money at FNs, they is always going to be the challenge of limited entry licenses/quotas and of course, fish.

It is complex, and full disclosure I grew up in a fishing town, spent about 7 years fishing in my teens and 20s, and I still have a lot of friends fishing right now that are both indigenous and otherwise. I know a few people that never had their status when we were kids but applied a few years back and have it now almost entirely for the massive benefit that it brings to their profession. Allowing change to permeate the system for non-native fishermen typically means edging even closer to giving up the fishing lifestyle that may be generations deep, so I think that is a very callous way to view it, especially since small fishing communities up and down the coast have had it tough economically for decades.

I have been saying this for a long time here. It is the small-town non-native people that are often viewed as an obstacle to reconciliation, but they are actually where true reconciliation happens. Since I left fishing over 20 years ago, moved to Vancouver, and started working within the construction industry, my exposure to the various indigenous communities and their people basically vanished. When I was a fisherman I worked with indigenous people all the time. I was in their communities regularly and they made up a large contingent of my community. Reconciliation in those communities is much more real, and often hits their bank accounts. Ignoring their needs is the easy way out but it makes it harder to reconcile, not easier.


 Last edited by: chupacabra on Aug. 8, 2022, 12:41 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Sept. 7, 2022, 1:56 p.m.
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

You may have heard in the news recently about an amazing paleontological discovery in the Yukon recently and it sheds some light on the Indigenous worldview and how important the concept of relationality is to Indigenous cultures. When this baby mammoth was uncovered it represented much more than just a cool scientific discovery to the Indigenous peoples of this region.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/baby-woolly-mammoth-and-what-is-next-1.6571285

Sept. 7, 2022, 2:11 p.m.
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Oh, and on the topic of the Pope's apology something that shed's light on it came up a few weeks ago. In 2015 "Canada agreed to "forever discharge" Catholic entities from their promise to raise $25 million for residential school survivors and also picked up their legal bill, a final release document shows".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-deal-catholic-church-fundraising-1.6557533


 Last edited by: syncro on Sept. 7, 2022, 2:13 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Sept. 7, 2022, 3:31 p.m.
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

You may have heard in the news recently about an amazing paleontological discovery in the Yukon recently and it sheds some light on the Indigenous worldview and how important the concept of relationality is to Indigenous cultures. When this baby mammoth was uncovered it represented much more than just a cool scientific discovery to the Indigenous peoples of this region.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/baby-woolly-mammoth-and-what-is-next-1.6571285

This was a very cool discovery.  What a place North America would have been 35,000 years ago with all the megafauna.  Mammoths, mastodons, sabre tooth tigers, short-face bears, giant sloths, etc.  

I question how much relationality they actually have with a mammoth that died that long ago, but it would be nice if it remained in town.  The common indigenous belief that they have always been on the land can clash with archeology so I would also want to see scientific access.

Sept. 7, 2022, 3:34 p.m.
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Oh, and on the topic of the Pope's apology something that shed's light on it came up a few weeks ago. In 2015 "Canada agreed to "forever discharge" Catholic entities from their promise to raise $25 million for residential school survivors and also picked up their legal bill, a final release document shows".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-deal-catholic-church-fundraising-1.6557533

I thought this was going to be another Trudeau scandal, but no.  I guess it shouldn't be too surprising that Harper would let the church skate.

Sept. 8, 2022, 11:13 a.m.
Posts: 13216
Joined: Nov. 24, 2002

Meanwhile, Queen Elizabeth II has passed away.

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