How much do you know about the history of Indigenous people under Canadian rule?
Residential schools or concentration camps?
Posted by: syncro
I had been meaning to get back to this one. Do you really think this quote defines our cultural divide? Doesn't it strike a chord of irony for you that Indigenous people don't have a mindset of "I have rights"?
Posted by: chupacabra
I had been meaning to get back to this one. Do you really think this quote defines our cultural divide? Doesn't it strike a chord of irony for you that Indigenous people don't have a mindset of "I have rights"?
I don't necessarily think the quote defines the cultural divide, but I think it explains a lot about it from an Indigenous perspective. Indigenous culture is far more collective vs the more individualistic of Euro-western and particularly American culture (the gorilla in our backyard has a significant influence on us and I think what's playing out right now in Ottawa is proof of that). It's not that the Indigenous worldview doesn't include individual rights, but they are not the primary concern, the welfare of the community, future generations and the planet comes first. We all have rights, the difference in view is whether "my" rights matter more than the rights of others. It's a different way of viewing the world, hence why I used the term Indigenous Worldview.
https://www.criaw-icref.ca/images/userfiles/files/Fact%20Sheet%202%20EN%20FINAL.pdf
Posted by: syncro
Posted by: chupacabra
I had been meaning to get back to this one. Do you really think this quote defines our cultural divide? Doesn't it strike a chord of irony for you that Indigenous people don't have a mindset of "I have rights"?
I don't necessarily think the quote defines the cultural divide, but I think it explains a lot about it from an Indigenous perspective. Indigenous culture is far more collective vs the more individualistic of Euro-western and particularly American culture (the gorilla in our backyard has a significant influence on us and I think what's playing out right now in Ottawa is proof of that). It's not that the Indigenous worldview doesn't include individual rights, but they are not the primary concern, the welfare of the community, future generations and the planet comes first. We all have rights, the difference in view is whether "my" rights matter more than the rights of others. It's a different way of viewing the world, hence why I used the term Indigenous Worldview.
https://www.criaw-icref.ca/images/userfiles/files/Fact%20Sheet%202%20EN%20FINAL.pdf
OK, I agree with that, it is just that in many ways we are currently being taught that anything western is inherently bad and other cultures are better. Obligations vs rights is thinly veiled altruism vs greed IMO and I get a little bit tired of western culture being viewed only in this way. We are certainly to blame for this since that is how we have always taught history but I think we need to take a step back and recognize that our culture comes from regular people and isn't defined by the Caesars and Rockefellers. For example, the West leads the way in building communities that are tolerant of one another and we have moved social justice in ways other cultures haven't even considered. That comes from recognizing our obligations to ensure others have rights.
Even in the link you posted you can see they start by comparing Western vs Indigenous knowledge. The first section on Indigenous knowledge is very reverent, but the section on Western knowledge is about how lacking it is.
Posted by: chupacabra
OK, I agree with that, it is just that in many ways we are currently being taught that anything western is inherently bad and other cultures are better. Obligations vs rights is thinly veiled altruism vs greed IMO and I get a little bit tired of western culture being viewed only in this way. We are certainly to blame for this since that is how we have always taught history but I think we need to take a step back and recognize that our culture comes from regular people and isn't defined by the Caesars and Rockefellers. For example, the West leads the way in building communities that are tolerant of one another and we have moved social justice in ways other cultures haven't even considered. That comes from recognizing our obligations to ensure others have rights.
Even in the link you posted you can see they start by comparing Western vs Indigenous knowledge. The first section on Indigenous knowledge is very reverent, but the section on Western knowledge is about how lacking it is.
Yeah I get that, but it's important to make a distinction between culture and world view. Maybe a question to answer is what is Western, or say North American culture? Pick that apart and then decide on whether it's a generally good thing or a generally bad thing. Weigh all the pros against all the cons. What are the effects of our culture and lifestyle on the rest of the environment - other people, animals and lands/oceans. When I start to examine Western knowledge, culture and world view I think they are very lacking as they are far too self centered. I think our culture is essentially defined by consumerism with no real attention given to the costs of that.
Posted by: syncro
Posted by: chupacabra
OK, I agree with that, it is just that in many ways we are currently being taught that anything western is inherently bad and other cultures are better. Obligations vs rights is thinly veiled altruism vs greed IMO and I get a little bit tired of western culture being viewed only in this way. We are certainly to blame for this since that is how we have always taught history but I think we need to take a step back and recognize that our culture comes from regular people and isn't defined by the Caesars and Rockefellers. For example, the West leads the way in building communities that are tolerant of one another and we have moved social justice in ways other cultures haven't even considered. That comes from recognizing our obligations to ensure others have rights.
Even in the link you posted you can see they start by comparing Western vs Indigenous knowledge. The first section on Indigenous knowledge is very reverent, but the section on Western knowledge is about how lacking it is.
Yeah I get that, but it's important to make a distinction between culture and world view. Maybe a question to answer is what is Western, or say North American culture? Pick that apart and then decide on whether it's a generally good thing or a generally bad thing. Weigh all the pros against all the cons. What are the effects of our culture and lifestyle on the rest of the environment - other people, animals and lands/oceans. When I start to examine Western knowledge, culture and world view I think they are very lacking as they are far too self centered. I think our culture is essentially defined by consumerism with no real attention given to the costs of that.
There are trends but I really don't think there is a single western culture in North America and there hasn't been for some time. Same with worldview, but the 2 go hand in hand. We tend to get our worldview from our culture. Look at the trucker protest. I see a lot of other Canadian white guys my age but we probably do not see this world in the same way at all. There is a strong Christian element there and I am an atheist, so right off the bat we are looking at the world from completely different angles.
Another good question: Is consumerism Western? It is certainly also Asian. Maybe it is just a consequence of human nature and success.
do you actually believe that there is some cohesive 'indigenous world view'? do you believe that any tribe in BC, gives a flying fuck about 'The Planet'?? beyond their immediate surroundings and that of their group, and how it serves them, ie, what they can extract from it to meet their needs. similar to their entire existence over the millennia?
Posted by: impressedbyyourwokeness
do you actually believe that there is some cohesive 'indigenous world view'? do you believe that any tribe in BC, gives a flying fuck about 'The Planet'?? beyond their immediate surroundings and that of their group, and how it serves them, ie, what they can extract from it to meet their needs. similar to their entire existence over the millennia?
At least one of them did. https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/b-c-first-nation-rejects-1-15-billion-lng-deal-says-it-s-not-a-money-issue_n_7276266/amp
Back in my fisherman days Lax Kw'alaams was also one of the few native villages I felt totally welcome in.
Well, looks like the office of the wetsueten lost all credibility today.
Well, looks like the office of the wetsueten lost all credibility today.
Posted by: Adam-West
Timing is impeccable.
Does anyone else smell fish?
Nope. There have been threats for some time.
Posted by: impressedbyyourwokeness
do you actually believe that there is some cohesive 'indigenous world view'? do you believe that any tribe in BC, gives a flying fuck about 'The Planet'?? beyond their immediate surroundings and that of their group, and how it serves them, ie, what they can extract from it to meet their needs. similar to their entire existence over the millennia?
Yes, there is a generally cohesive Indigenous Worldview that is seen all over the planet. This doesn't mean it's exactly the same for every group or that every group even has one, but it does exits. Also note that worldview and culture are not the same thing. Yes, many tribes in BC care about the planet. For many of them the land is an integral part of their culture and identity. Coast Salish peoples in particular can be noted for many aspects of their culture that have a view towards living in harmony with the land and ensuring the land will be able to provide for them seven generations into the future. For them, they have an obligation to protect the land and not treat it like a cash machine and garbage heap like Western ideologies do.
Posted by: syncro
Posted by: impressedbyyourwokeness
do you actually believe that there is some cohesive 'indigenous world view'? do you believe that any tribe in BC, gives a flying fuck about 'The Planet'?? beyond their immediate surroundings and that of their group, and how it serves them, ie, what they can extract from it to meet their needs. similar to their entire existence over the millennia?
Yes, there is a generally cohesive Indigenous Worldview that is seen all over the planet. This doesn't mean it's exactly the same for every group or that every group even has one, but it does exits. Also note that worldview and culture are not the same thing. Yes, many tribes in BC care about the planet. For many of them the land is an integral part of their culture and identity. Coast Salish peoples in particular can be noted for many aspects of their culture that have a view towards living in harmony with the land and ensuring the land will be able to provide for them seven generations into the future. For them, they have an obligation to protect the land and not treat it like a cash machine and garbage heap like Western ideologies do.
I think it makes sense for a culture that is still rooted in a hunter/gatherer lifestyle to be more invested in keeping nature as it is. With animal husbandry and agriculture people learn that they can manipulate nature to their benefit.
Worldview and culture are different, but I think it is hard to say that a specific culture has a specific worldview. From what I have seen worldviews tend to be personal and follow the liberal/conservative schism that all cultures have within them. We have so much more information today to form a worldview that doesn't always conform to our cultural history.
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