Gunman (men?) in Parliment hill

It is racist from certain aspects. Islam began as an Arab religion, and although that can't be said of it anymore, its adherents are still overwhelmingly Asian (Arabs, Indo-Paks, South-East Asians, Malays, etc.).

Criticism of Islam largely stems from ignorance of the religion and its tenets (a lot of what people bring up as examples of Islam's problems are actually cultural problems, not problems that originate from the religion itself), which itself stems from Orientalism. Edward Said's books on the topic argue that Orientalism is rooted in racism. And we can see some of what he tried to show in his books demonstrated by some of the horrible and extremely ignorant comments made in this thread.

No, criticism of Islam comes from the inescapable conclusion that most of what we call terrorism in this world is done in the name of Islam. You cannot separate religion from culture. One religion may look different across different cultures, but if the religion is dominant in a culture then aspects of that religion will play a key role in shaping that culture and vice versa. The tenets of Islam (and most religions) are open to interpretation, and if I am interpreting them out of ignorance maybe you can enlighten me as to the peaceful teachings of Islam towards unbelievers?

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

In a culture where violence is already prevalent (usually impoverished and under a totalitarian rule with lots of young, pissed off men), the religion can be easily manipulated to escalate the violence, especially if their texts promote it in some way as the Koran clearly does.

Until the moderates redact the Koran of all the calls to violence I will continue to criticize the religion and I don't believe it has anything to do with ignorance of the tenets.

No, criticism of Islam comes from the inescapable conclusion that most of what we call terrorism in this world is done in the name of Islam.

Most of what the media reports, perhaps. Regardless, as I said in my reply to aShogunNamedMarcus, there's a whole spectrum of reasons why people will-and do-criticize Islam. And while I'm sure some of it does stem from whatever conclusions you say people have come to about Islam and its link to terrorism, that's just one of many reasons why people criticize it.

You cannot separate religion from culture.

Of course you can. You can make clear distinctions between what's legislated in a particular religion (according to the source texts, if it has any) and compare them to the cultural practices of a particular peoples who are associated with said religion. And while, yes, there is some overlap, there are other things that you'll find are either legislated, but not adhered to, or vice versa, things that are practiced that aren't legislated in the religion, and sometimes even considered forbidden. Tons of examples of that with respect to Islam, e.g., FGM, honour killings, etc. And while yes, there are certain things in Islam that are open to interpretation, there are many that are not and pretty much set in stone.

Until the moderates redact the Koran of all the calls to violence I will continue to criticize the religion and I don't believe it has anything to do with ignorance of the tenets.

While you might not believe that criticism would have anything to do with ignorance of Islam's tenets, I'd say that you quoting that verse from the Qur'an proves that it does.

Again, referring to my reply to aShogunNamedMarcus, I mentioned that,

Islamic law, which is more of a framework than it is a set codified set of rules, covers the entire spectrum of human interaction, including conduct during times of peace as well as conduct during times of war and hostility.

Because these things do exist in Islam's source texts, with respect to one or the other (peace/war), it isn't too difficult for anyone to come along and take things out of context and present them negatively as "the way it is" in criticism of it. It also isn't too difficult for anyone to come along and cling to a certain set of concepts and legislations in exclusion of the others and run away with them using them as justification for whatever they do.

One of the core beliefs in Islam is that Islam is a complete way of life, and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God and cannot be changed; so there is no redacting anything from it. Everything has a context, including the verse you quoted. Taking it out of that context is perversion of the religion and its texts, whether it's done by a Muslim extremist or a non-Muslim critic of the religion.

One of the core beliefs in Islam is that Islam is a complete way of life, and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God and cannot be changed; so there is no redacting anything from it. Everything has a context, including the verse you quoted. Taking it out of that context is perversion of the religion and its texts, whether it's done by a Muslim extremist or a non-Muslim critic of the religion.

I believe you have made chupacabra's point for him. There are many people who claim to be "Muslims" who take the words of the Qur'an out of context.

That's the problem right there.

I believe you have made chupacabra's point for him. There are many people who claim to be "Muslims" who take the words of the Qur'an out of context.

I never said anything to disagree with that. Many people take many things out of context, whether it be religious texts or anything else. My comment was specifically regarding the portion of his comment that I quoted.

Most of what the media reports, perhaps. Regardless, as I said in my reply to aShogunNamedMarcus, there's a whole spectrum of reasons why people will-and do-criticize Islam. And while I'm sure some of it does stem from whatever conclusions you say people have come to about Islam and its link to terrorism, that's just one of many reasons why people criticize it.

I understand. There are plenty of bigots out there and many people that dislike Muslims because they are different than they are. I just want you to know that not all criticisms come from prejudice.

Of course you can. You can make clear distinctions between what's legislated in a particular religion (according to the source texts, if it has any) and compare them to the cultural practices of a particular peoples who are associated with said religion. And while, yes, there is some overlap, there are other things that you'll find are either legislated, but not adhered to, or vice versa, things that are practiced that aren't legislated in the religion, and sometimes even considered forbidden. Tons of examples of that with respect to Islam, e.g., FGM, honour killings, etc. And while yes, there are certain things in Islam that are open to interpretation, there are many that are not and pretty much set in stone.

On this we will have to agree to disagree. I am not religious and I see religion as 100% cultural because it part of why people act the way they do within the society they were raised.

While you might not believe that criticism would have anything to do with ignorance of Islam's tenets, I'd say that you quoting that verse from the Qur'an proves that it does.

I did say you could enlighten me. You say that these tenets are for both peace and war, but the war is against the non-believers is it not? I don't recall Muhammad being very kind to the pagans, but maybe you can tell me different. The fact is if I already hate the west and I am Muslim, it is not too hard for someone to convince me that we are at war, then what is the context? For the record I have the exact same criticism of Christianity for the hateful language of the old testament.

One of the core beliefs in Islam is that Islam is a complete way of life, and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God and cannot be changed; so there is no redacting anything from it. Everything has a context, including the verse you quoted. Taking it out of that context is perversion of the religion and its texts, whether it's done by a Muslim extremist or a non-Muslim critic of the religion.

And that is the problem. The Qur'an (I have to keep updating my spelling) has a lot of violent instructions that apparently came directly from god. Don't you see how susceptible this is for perversion? Why would god ever say those things?

stupid humans thinking they know what a 'god' thinks or cares about. go away, religion.

stupid humans thinking they know what a 'god' thinks or cares about. go away, religion.

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stupid humans thinking they know what a 'god' thinks or cares about. go away, religion.

Having ridden with God and Lucifer…they would be much happier if you rode your bike more.

I understand. There are plenty of bigots out there and many people that dislike Muslims because they are different than they are. I just want you to know that not all criticisms come from prejudice.

Fair enough. Although that's never been lost to me, thanks.

I did say you could enlighten me.

Yes, you did. I don't believe this is the proper venue for that, though (as is demonstrated above, lol). I had also originally written a longer reply to aShogunNamedMarcus, but decided against posting it and deleted a bunch of stuff before replying, mainly for that reason.

(I have to keep updating my spelling)

There isn't really a correct spelling for Arabic words in English. You spell it how it's pronounced. Qur'an is more accurate than Koran, but both have been used throughout academia, so pick whichever one you like.

There isn't really a correct spelling for Arabic words in English. You spell it how it's pronounced. Qur'an is more accurate than Koran, but both have been used throughout academia, so pick whichever one you like.

Good to know, I wouldn't want to piss off any Muslims… :lol:

This discussion is probably better in another forum like you said but I would like to leave you with one last note and that is for me personally I have nothing against Muslims and certainly do not fear our Muslim community. Like I said my criticisms are equally applied to Christians and my mom is Catholic so that is a holy war I would never engage in. All of us moderate people that just want to have a peaceful world are in this together.

To get back to the purpose of this thread I think the nutter that started shooting up Ottawa had more in common with the Columbine killers than anyone else. Just a crazed and confused mad man looking for a reason to shoot people.

Spotted marching in uniform with sword at the National War Memorial. Apperently born at VGH.

http://guardianofvalor.com/take-best-shot-marine-guarding-canada-national-war-memorial-real/

To get back to the purpose of this thread I think the nutter that started shooting up Ottawa had more in common with the Columbine killers than anyone else. Just a crazed and confused mad man looking for a reason to shoot people.

I agree.

Yet we'll spend billions more on surveillance and security and nothing extra on mental health, poverty and addiction.

this

I would be okay with religion if people followed the section in the book of Matthew. That specifically states that prayer and such is a private matter between you and your god.

Hey look, the Bible says you can sell your daughter as a sex slave! And she comes with a money-back satisfaction guarantee. Exodus 21:7-8

"7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

8 If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her."

All Christians (and Jews - it is the Old Testament) must be sick perverts or something.