Electric Vehicle (EV) discussion thread

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: XXX_er

I don't think the average old fuck who has bought an F-150 for the last 40 yars, who walks into a dealer and buys another truck by writing a check is going to be all that impressed with the tesla

i usually don't agree with anything 3 sheets sez just on principle but he has a good point about having a standard for swapable batteries,

Long range driving would make more sense if it was possible to swap batteries, with the ability to just pull into a station and easily swap batteries it could take not much more time than it does to buy gas

I still don't see this as a huge issue. Top range on the top model $60k cybertruck is supposedly around 800kms let's be conservative and say you'd only get 600kms out of it when loaded down.

I mean...who doesn't stop for at least one half hour - 45 minute lunch break on a 1200+ km road trip?

I feel like it doesn't matter how far the range is people will still say it's not enough. It could be 2000kms and you'd still have some badass saying it wouldn't work for their commute because they work two provinces away and always tow a 10 thousand pound trailer.

You get nowhere near that kind of range with a full towing load on an EV. EVs dont have the energy density to overcome the extra loads. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4W-P5aCWJs&t=1081s

To sum it up, a CyberTruck with a 200kwh battery (that's the current guess as to what it will have) would likely not be able to pull its fully rated load (14,000lbs) even 100 miles (even though unloaded its range is estimated to be 500 miles). Yes you can argue that no one tows full rated loads, but even half rated loads would become a problem. The video explains it well. Gasoline has a superior energy density to current batteries, which is why a 23 or 36 gallon F-150 can tow an equivalent amount of payload (13,000lbs for F-150) over an equivalent distance (100miles) quite easily on one tank of gas. Eventhough the ICE is much less efficient than the EV, it has access to so much more energy in the form of gasoline onboard that it makes for a better towing/hauling platform (until the battery tech catches up).

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

As I drove my aging F-150 down to the transfer station to have 1/2 a yard of topsoil dumped into the bed I was thinking about these two trucks. Guessing most owners wouldn't want to do that to their shiny teslas, but maybe some ford people would. Guessing the range goes to shit when you add that much weight to the bed.

So maybe that "new niche" of truck owner is just nouveau riche mall crawlers.

Most truck owners wouldn't fill the box with dirt period. The construction site parking lot is always full of spotless trucks that don't do anything for their owners except blow their paycheques out the tailpipes. 

Where I think ev-trucks would excel over IC trucks is off-roading. Especially since the cyber truck has a separate motor for each wheel. Not sure if the onboard computing is clever enough to truly take advantage of that yet but that's only a matter of time. 

There's also the fact that the underside is just a smooth plate

rivian has 4 motors, cybertruck up to 3.

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Most truck owners wouldn't fill the box with dirt period. The construction site parking lot is always full of spotless trucks that don't do anything for their owners except blow their paycheques out the tailpipes.

Where I think ev-trucks would excel over IC trucks is off-roading. Especially since the cyber truck has a separate motor for each wheel. Not sure if the onboard computing is clever enough to truly take advantage of that yet but that's only a matter of time.

There's also the fact that the underside is just a smooth plate

Fair point re: dirt. I just don’t get the appeal of a truck in general (I say as an owner). 95% of use cases a hatchback or small SUV is superior imho.

Current computing is certainly quick enough for on the fly traction control of independent wheels/motors. Although off-road adventures is where I’d be most concerned with range. Which if the production version Tesla concept truck actually comes with built in and *viable* solar panel charging, it gets interesting.

I’m back to thinking it’s a nouveau riche mall crawler.

Posted by: XXX_er

If it's recreational then what's the problem with sitting around for half an hour eating a sandwich while charging?

where did you start/ where did you finish/ where are you going to recharge ?

Electric Greg would go for a training run while his EV charged but he is not even close to normal

Not sure where you start or finish but it's a lot easier to build a charging station near a remote area than a battery swapping station. The investment costs of that kind of infrastructure would be insane. Also what's the total range of a gas truck on logging roads carrying a couple jerry cans? My corolla only averages about 500kms out of it's 40 liter tanks. If you're driving 400kms into the bush in an IC vehicle does range not also become an issue?

Posted by: shoreboy

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: XXX_er

I don't think the average old fuck who has bought an F-150 for the last 40 yars, who walks into a dealer and buys another truck by writing a check is going to be all that impressed with the tesla

i usually don't agree with anything 3 sheets sez just on principle but he has a good point about having a standard for swapable batteries,

Long range driving would make more sense if it was possible to swap batteries, with the ability to just pull into a station and easily swap batteries it could take not much more time than it does to buy gas

I still don't see this as a huge issue. Top range on the top model $60k cybertruck is supposedly around 800kms let's be conservative and say you'd only get 600kms out of it when loaded down.

I mean...who doesn't stop for at least one half hour - 45 minute lunch break on a 1200+ km road trip?

I feel like it doesn't matter how far the range is people will still say it's not enough. It could be 2000kms and you'd still have some badass saying it wouldn't work for their commute because they work two provinces away and always tow a 10 thousand pound trailer.

You get nowhere near that kind of range with a full towing load on an EV. EVs dont have the energy density to overcome the extra loads. 

To sum it up, a CyberTruck with a 200kwh battery (that's the current guess as to what it will have) would likely not be able to pull its fully rated load (14,000lbs) even 100 miles (even though unloaded its range is estimated to be 500 miles). Yes you can argue that no one tows full rated loads, but even half rated loads would become a problem. The video explains it well. Gasoline has a superior energy density to current batteries, which is why a 23 or 36 gallon F-150 can tow an equivalent amount of payload (13,000lbs for F-150) over an equivalent distance (100miles) quite easily on one tank of gas. Eventhough the ICE is much less efficient than the EV, it has access to so much more energy in the form of gasoline onboard that it makes for a better towing/hauling platform (until the battery tech catches up).

That's good info thanks. Seems to me it would still work for most people though. 

All the examples of where EV doesn't cut it are all pretty extreme as far as needs from a vehicle are concerned.

So, to recap ...

"Electric pickup trucks can't work because they are unable to [insert very rare edge case]."

Battery swap is not the way to go. There are a lot of reasons why it is impractical, but suffice to say that Tesla tried it as a pilot in 2015/6 on the LA to SF corridor and it never flew. With the current ultra high speed DC charging hitting 250-350 kW of charge speed, most batteries can be charged from 10% to 80+% in about half an hour. Given that you'd be driving 3-4 hours between full charges, I think any rational person can accept that a 30 minute break from driving after 3+ hours on the road is not only important, but necessary to keep the drive alert and safe.

Posted by: KenN

Battery swap is not the way to go. There are a lot of reasons why it is impractical, but suffice to say that Tesla tried it as a pilot in 2015/6 on the LA to SF corridor and it never flew. With the current ultra high speed DC charging hitting 250-350 kW of charge speed, most batteries can be charged from 10% to 80+% in about half an hour. Given that you'd be driving 3-4 hours between full charges, I think any rational person can accept that a 30 minute break from driving after 3+ hours on the road is not only important, but necessary to keep the drive alert and safe.

It definitely kills the multiple drivers on a roadtrip scenario though.

Posted by: KenN

So, to recap ...

"Electric pickup trucks can't work because they are unable to [insert very rare edge case]."

I'd agree with your statement based on what people today use pickups for.  Id amend your recap by saying:

"Electric pickup trucks can't work as they were originally designed as they are unable to haul/tow large payloads while maintaining acceptable range."

Posted by: KenN

So, to recap ...

"Electric pickup trucks can't work because they are unable to [insert very rare edge case]."

I don't think that's what people are saying. If you look at people who use their pickup trucks as pickup trucks, then the Tesla comes up a bit short. If you look at people who mainly use their pickup trucks for groceries, commuting and the odd gravel road excursion or as a bicycle shuttle wagon then yeah, the Tesla fits the bill. The question of adoption imo comes down to price and styling. I think for sure there will be a market for these things, but I think the market is going to be based far more on the "look what I got factor" than the actual truck utility factor.

I suspect there will be bits of both. And I also think that the truck utility factor is a lot better than the naysayers are implying.

Posted by: XXX_er

I just look at whatever you do and I do the opposite

the prayer flags are looking ratty, but actualy you leave em up and they blow/rot away, might be time for a re & re

don't those haul trucks regenerate/ re-charge as they go back down hill ?

Yes, but much of the regenerative energy is lost to braking the truck. Simple physics

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: KenN

So, to recap ...

"Electric pickup trucks can't work because they are unable to [insert very rare edge case]."

I don't think that's what people are saying. If you look at people who use their pickup trucks as pickup trucks, then the Tesla comes up a bit short. If you look at people who mainly use their pickup trucks for groceries, commuting and the odd gravel road excursion or as a bicycle shuttle wagon then yeah, the Tesla fits the bill. The question of adoption imo comes down to price and styling. I think for sure there will be a market for these things, but I think the market is going to be based far more on the "look what I got factor" than the actual truck utility factor.

How do either the tesla or the ford ev truck come up short? For 99% of the lower mainland contractors I can't see a single drawback and even some advantages. Most people get materials delivered anyways and generally just have to move people and tools. How much range does the average trades worker actually need?

Posted by: Fast-Orange

Posted by: XXX_er

If it's recreational then what's the problem with sitting around for half an hour eating a sandwich while charging?

where did you start/ where did you finish/ where are you going to recharge ?

Electric Greg would go for a training run while his EV charged but he is not even close to normal

Not sure where you start or finish but it's a lot easier to build a charging station near a remote area than a battery swapping station. The investment costs of that kind of infrastructure would be insane. Also what's the total range of a gas truck on logging roads carrying a couple jerry cans? My corolla only averages about 500kms out of it's 40 liter tanks. If you're driving 400kms into the bush in an IC vehicle does range not also become an issue?

Im averaging 1050 km to a 120 litre tank.

Dont get me wrong, electric trucks have their niche...fleet use would be excellent. Id gladly try them out at work where the trucks do less than 100 km a day for the most part.