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Electric Vehicle (EV) discussion thread

April 2, 2014, 11:21 a.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Check out;

http://www.plugshare.com/

https://suncountryhighway.ca/ev-trip-planner/#.UzxU8Vcz0XQ

I know we've all seen the occasional EV chargers in parking lots, but these maps of charging infrastructure really show you how much choice there really is.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

April 2, 2014, 12:09 p.m.
Posts: 14537
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

What I didn't think of before buying an EV, but quickly learned is that you just have to tweak your re-fueling schedule from the usual ICE methods. Most ICE drivers fill the tank, drive until the tank is nearly empty, then re-fill. But since EV charging is everywhere, you just plug in and take a sip wherever you go. Going grocery shopping, to the mall, downtown to wander around a bit? Find an EV spot and plug in. Except for long trips, there's very little reason to let the charge drop to near empty before re-charging. Also, free. Almost all public charging in BC is free - sometimes you have to pay parking fees for a lot, but not for the charging!

Do you think this will remain free? I have to think at some point once it becomes more mainstream and the demand for charging stations rises, whoever is supplying power isn't going to be doing it for free. As those EV stations begin to be busy all the time your choices will become more limited as well.

I just see all the free charging stations around these days as being the "free introductory offer" when you sign up. Sooner or later, the free ride is going to end and I'm curious how it's going to work.

April 2, 2014, 12:30 p.m.
Posts: 9884
Joined: June 29, 2006

I think this is the key in trying to understand whether EV cars actually are cheaper to own/maintain in the long term. Sure your electricity bill increase is a fraction of what your petrol bill is…. but if it's going to cost you 10K every 5 years* to replace the batteries, not sure if you're coming out ahead

To add to this I am curious to know what the resale value will be. I would think an EV would hold up much better since there are less moving parts as long as the battery was fresh and that might help cut that replacement cost, but we won't know this until they start hitting the used market.

Early adopters are making it all happen though Thanks KenN.

"Don't worry, they usually don't swim backwards" -- Steve Irwin

April 2, 2014, 12:35 p.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Do you think this will remain free? I have to think at some point once it becomes more mainstream and the demand for charging stations rises, whoever is supplying power isn't going to be doing it for free. As those EV stations begin to be busy all the time your choices will become more limited as well.

Agreed. I don't see how keeping it free could be long-term sustainable. At the moment, there are quite a few tax incentives for implementing EV infrastructure so shopping centers, office buildings, etc will see a benefit. But I can't see that lasting much longer than 3-4 more years. Once we see EV ownership hit some kind of critical mass there's just got to be a price.

But … residential power rates are at 7.5 cents and 11.3 cents per kWh (as of yesterday) for tier 1 and tier 2. Commercial rates are hard to compare because there are so many variables, but if they're on the straight charge plan it's just under 10 cents/kWh.

At those rates, an 80 kWh charge (400 km) would run about $8.00. Allow for 25% markup and you're up to 10 bucks. Quite a bit less than filling a 60-liter tank!

Edit: The Tesla superchargers are guaranteed to be free for life. But they work that into the cost of the car.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

April 2, 2014, 12:43 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

How much does it cost to charge your electric car at one of these roadside charging station?

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

April 2, 2014, 12:45 p.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

To add to this I am curious to know what the resale value will be. I would think an EV would hold up much better since there are less moving parts as long as the battery was fresh and that might help cut that replacement cost, but we won't know this until they start hitting the used market.

Yeah, that is a very interesting part of the story, with interesting consequences. For example, there is almost no way to lease a Tesla right now. None of the banks or major financials will touch it. Leases are based on an estimation of residual value and nobody has a clue what the residual will be on these cars. There are private, third-party places that will lease but few and far between. (not that I'd be interested in leasing!)

Now, that said, there's an even more interesting side story here. Because Tesla is production constrained (orders are flying in faster than they can make the things), there is a waiting period of about 3 months from order to delivery. In today's "gotta have it now" world, that's affecting resale price. Those few cars that are going up for sale (all are no more than a year old) are actually fetching a higher price than new.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/02/07/tesla-model-s-worth-more-used-than-new/

No way that's sustainable. So for now, we still have no idea where resale will be headed. I tend to agree, though - with so few wear and failure points, I'd think that resale will be at least a bit better than normal ICE. The battery pack condition/lifespan being the big if.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

April 2, 2014, 12:51 p.m.
Posts: 13932
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Of course, everyone's driving habits differ, but because I've kept complete records of my spending for the last 10 years (in Quicken), I know that I've spent an average of $250/month on gas over the last two years. That's $3,000/year so $12k over four years.

Ease up on the lead foot.

I'm roughly 1500/year for both vehicles (but until Tesla has an F150 option - that's not going anywhere). So take out 500 for the F150 (mainly used for renos and some shuttles) and I'm 1K/yr. Electricity is free now, but if we agree that that isn't forever and go with the 10/fill model, then I'm saving 5/6th of cost. So my fuel savings is ~840/year…

So it roughly speaking, it would take me 12-15ish years to break even with the battery replacement cost (if I use my article's 12K price tag).

Not knocking the EV choice, I'm actually very interested in the SUV they're bringing to market, but I find the price comparison to not be as straightforward as the marketing would have me think it is.

April 2, 2014, 12:53 p.m.
Posts: 946
Joined: Dec. 1, 2002

I find the complaints about charge time to be annoying, personally. It's all a matter of perspective. If we suddenly could travel at five times the speed and fill up in 5 seconds flat, suddenly the current travel times would totally unacceptable. If you asked a guy in 1890 what he thought about being able to travel 500km in half a day and then having to stop for 10 minutes, it would be unreal to him.

Just like fast food and all that, the convenience will not improve your life. I think convenience has gotten way out of hand these days, anyway.

April 2, 2014, 12:59 p.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

How much does it cost to charge your electric car at one of these roadside charging station?

So far, I haven't seen a single station in BC that requires payment. I've been told that Ethical Bean in East Van will even give you a free coffee while you wait to charge!

In the US there's a lot more stations that have a cost. Some are free, some have hourly charges (like $1 an hour), some need a monthly membership (typically $20) for unlimited use, and some are pretty pricey (up to $0.49 per kWh!!).

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

April 2, 2014, 1:17 p.m.
Posts: 7707
Joined: Sept. 11, 2003

Agreed. I don't see how keeping it free could be long-term sustainable. At the moment, there are quite a few tax incentives for implementing EV infrastructure so shopping centers, office buildings, etc will see a benefit. But I can't see that lasting much longer than 3-4 more years. Once we see EV ownership hit some kind of critical mass there's just got to be a price.

Good on ya for doing that. I was considering going the EV route a few months ago, the only thing stopping me was my ignorance (basically too many unknowns to consider). Things will only get more affordable, I would hope.

In Wa State, I understand there is an added surtax on electric vehicles - its only about $100 a year right now, I think. This is to make up for the lost revenue from fuel surcharges. I can see governments putting in additional surtaxes and surcharges for road maintenance and other tax revenues. Seems stupid, certainly in the beginning, but the money has to come from somewhere. The EV revolution, when it comes, is going to shake up government economic tax structures. They will probably nail people hard for things like vehicle registration like they do in some countries.

April 2, 2014, 1:28 p.m.
Posts: 976
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I find the complaints about charge time to be annoying, personally. It's all a matter of perspective. If we suddenly could travel at five times the speed and fill up in 5 seconds flat, suddenly the current travel times would totally unacceptable. If you asked a guy in 1890 what he thought about being able to travel 500km in half a day and then having to stop for 10 minutes, it would be unreal to him.

Just like fast food and all that, the convenience will not improve your life. I think convenience has gotten way out of hand these days, anyway.

That exactly defines what the battle is, changing public perception of wants vs what is a better overall choice. In that sense for shorter commutes the bicycle is the winner.

context is everything

April 2, 2014, 1:34 p.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Ease up on the lead foot.

Hey hey now!! I totally drive like a grandma!

Srsly, the vehicle I'm replacing is by no means an economy car. Not in the gas guzzler category either, but not great. So my own reference point could be higher than others for that reason. Drive to work (40 km round trip) most days and fairly frequent trips to job sites for inspections and commissioning, so it adds up. Then add in weekends faffing around doing family chores and shit.

Anyone that subs in a good amount of cycling or transit to work, or has the option to spend a few days working from home would not see the same benefit.

So it roughly speaking, it would take me 12-15ish years to break even with the battery replacement cost (if I use my article's 12K price tag).

That's true now, but there is some pretty amazing research in battery tech right now. Have a look at what's going on with Lithium-air and Sodium-ion batteries. They're knocking down the big three barriers of cost, charging rate and weight and damn fast. Hell, just this week they've announced a new breakthrough to make Li-Ion batteries cheaper and hold more charge -[HTML_REMOVED] http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140331144143.htm

I don't see batteries costing anything like today's prices in 8 years. Just my WAG.

Not knocking the EV choice, I'm actually very interested in the SUV they're bringing to market, but I find the price comparison to not be as straightforward as the marketing would have me think it is.

For sure … at the end of the day, they have a product and they want to sell it. Grain of salt required.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

April 2, 2014, 1:38 p.m.
Posts: 142
Joined: June 24, 2013

That's getting pretty close to the 15 or so minutes you'd take to pump a full tank of gas.

Yeah, if you fill your tank with a measuring cup. I'm in and out in less than 5 minutes.

Libre? Libre como el vienta……

April 2, 2014, 1:40 p.m.
Posts: 976
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

That's true now, but there is some pretty amazing research in battery tech right now. Have a look at what's going on with Lithium-air and Sodium-ion batteries. They're knocking down the big three barriers of cost, charging rate and weight and damn fast. I don't see batteries costing anything like today's prices in 8 years.

I think by 2030 when ev's are the norm gen x'ers will look back on the past 40yrs and think holy shit did things change fast.

context is everything

April 2, 2014, 1:46 p.m.
Posts: 16094
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

Yeah, if you fill your tank with a measuring cup. I'm in and out in less than 5 minutes.

Given that most gas pumps deliver at a rate of 5 gallons/minute, and the EPA limits even the fastest stations to 10 gpm, then if you've actually included the time it takes to authorize/pay for the sale, take the cap off, fill, put the cap back on … then 5 minutes is pretty unlikely.

Under 10 minutes maybe if you treat filling your car as some kind of speed contest, but otherwise I call BS.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

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