Do you support or agree with the nationwide Protests?

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: JBV

ah, the wisdom of professors. imagine how cool it would be to be a tenured prof and write this kind of shit and try and pass it off as intelligent, logic based argument. as soon as you read 'settler state' or 'colonists' written by a white person, or any person in this country, you know they're fucked, and hence we're fucked. and so we continue to track backwards in this country.

What makes you think the argument is shit? Why are using the words settler state or colonists so bad?

Before answering this question it might be worth considering a hypothetical example first. It's 20 years into the future and climate change has happened in a hurry and the US is suddenly in dire straights when it comes to water and arable land. Canada has been far less affected and the Us simply rolls in and takes over. They usurp our government and put their own in place. They enact their own laws, making our justice null and void. They push us off the best land and take it for themselves. They deny us access to medical help and let disease spread. They take your children away to try and reeducate them into accepting their way of life. I could keep going but I think you get the point. What type of impact do you think this would have on the Canadian psyche? What would you call the US, an invading force, a colonizer? Until one starts to comprehend what happen to Indigenous peoples in this land after Europeans came here to settle this land and take it for their own, it's hard to appreciate the debt Canadian society owes. Now that doesn't mean that Indigenous peoples can't benefit in some way from things European culture brought here and developed here, but it definitely does not account for what European culture stole from Indigenous peoples who had been living here for millennia. Like it or not, we are responsible for taking the first steps in trying to bring some sort of balance back. One thing we cannot do however is right that wrong.

There is a debt to pay without a doubt, but I agree with JBV. These professors handcuff the country in court by writing bullshit like this. Non-natives in this country are not settlers, and the toothpaste can't go back in the tube, but Canadian courts and Canadian taxpayers are doing all we can to shoot ourselves in the foot. It is "experts" like this that see nothing wrong with accepting the authority of hereditary leaders. There needs to be a counter-narrative that shows that the existence of millions of non-native on this land also gives rights to Canada so that the approach of going through courts has a chance at a reasonable and timely outcome. Without some support for Canada every decision will go to first nations and set back any chance at agreements because they all know they can keep fighting and Canada will pick up the tab for the lawyers.

I say get the water cannons. It's still Feb.

How can we protest the protestors? At the Broadway Cambie protest 2 weeks ago, whoever was leading the charge with a megaphone didnt really look to have much association with the protest and same with the sjw's lining the crosswalk. Megaphone girl was shouting 'what is democracy' sjw's in the paint would shout back "this is democracy" and I asked where I could vote. Got some funny looks. I also didnt see much of a band council. But I did see roughly 60+ cops standing around doing SFA (thats sweet fuck all) watching these kids fuck up the day to day lives of Vancouverites.

What would happen if I rented a truck and an excavator and dug up their road to protest ? Where is this band? Where did this they get this support? How are they maintaining it? And who's paying to keep the protestors there and why are the cops standing down nationwide. Was there a directive given before it started?

Roughly 85% of the band are in favour of the gas line. There’s the democracy. Most of these “protesters” are poorly informed and are wonderfully destructive to their cause. The band did ask the protesters to ease up yesterday. As far as the cops go, they are waiting for direction because it’s a protest. If it were up to this moderate liberal I would have given them 24 hours notice and brought in the military. That’s what Trudeau sr. would have done. Don’t forget your One Call Marcus.

Just because a majority "favours" something, doesn't mean they're making a good, well-informed choice.

Posted by: FLATCH

If it were up to this moderate liberal I would have given them 24 hours notice and brought in the military.

Certainly, if starting a civil war is your goal, then that's the way to do it.

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2020/02/18/Hiding-Behind-One-Rule-Of-Law-Myth-Wetsuweten/

"Indigenous laws and constitutional orders — such as that of the Wet’suwet’en — predate the arrival of British or French law in Canada by an order of magnitude so vast that it is difficult to grasp.

The British Crown recognized these legal orders in the 18th century. In the 19th century, the Canadian government used the settler rule of law to outlaw Indigenous forms of governance and to impose a system of elected chiefs and councillors under the Indian Act.

Canada did not succeed at displacing Indigenous law. Outlawed, but not eliminated, hereditary chiefs and Indigenous legal systems survived. Since the 1970s, the Supreme Court of Canada has created a body of law which acknowledges that Indigenous law did not evaporate when the British shouted “Mine!”

In the case of unceded lands, such as those of the Wet’suwet’en (and of much of the rest of British Columbia), the Supreme Court has found that the Crown’s own “rule of law” cannot substantiate its claim to sovereignty, and that Aboriginal title survives."

Posted by: KenN

Posted by: FLATCH

If it were up to this moderate liberal I would have given them 24 hours notice and brought in the military.

Certainly, if starting a civil war is your goal, then that's the way to do it.

So we should just sit on our hands?  And can you tell me why so many of them cover their faces. If so sincere I would want you to see my face.

Posted by: JBV

if you truly see yourself and your family as settlers and colonists, you should take everyone back to where they came from. and if that is from here, too late. you're the problem. and this is exactly the polarization i mentioned and why there is no way forward when this mindset is present.

Posted by: chupacabra

There is a debt to pay without a doubt, but I agree with JBV. These professors handcuff the country in court by writing bullshit like this. Non-natives in this country are not settlers, and the toothpaste can't go back in the tube, but Canadian courts and Canadian taxpayers are doing all we can to shoot ourselves in the foot. It is "experts" like this that see nothing wrong with accepting the authority of hereditary leaders. There needs to be a counter-narrative that shows that the existence of millions of non-native on this land also gives rights to Canada so that the approach of going through courts has a chance at a reasonable and timely outcome. Without some support for Canada every decision will go to first nations and set back any chance at agreements because they all know they can keep fighting and Canada will pick up the tab for the lawyers.

Ok, so a few points here. First, as a nation of people (Canada) descended from those who arrived here after Indigenous cultures had existed for thousands of years and pushed them off the land we may not be the settlers or colonists, but we have reaped benefits that came at the expense of Indigenous people. Recognizing that does not make me the problem and it is not polarization, it is simply recognition of what actually happened and not the limited revisionist history people have been told. 

Second, in regards to accepting the authority of hereditary claims, the lands in question are unceded. That means that the lands were not handed over in any sort of agreement nor were they taken by force in a war or armed  conflict. In other words, the Indigenous people living there still hold title over the land and the Canadian government does not. This is different from lands where treaties were signed and as BC was colonized much later than eastern Canada there is a lot of land in dispute here. There are vast amounts of land where no treaties where ever signed, all that happened is that someone (govt) drew a line on a map and said this is ours with no thought given to the people who had been living there for thousands of years.  

If BC had never been colonized and it was just Indigenous people living here would you be ok with the Government of Canada sending an invading force to take over the land? I seem to recall you having objections to Putin moving into the Ukraine. That is essentially what's happened in Wet'suwet'en territory and they are simply pushing back and saying no. You also have to understand Indigenous history with the RCMP to understand why they want the RCMP out of the picture. CGL has the option of looking for another route or if that's not possible then they have to try and sweeten the pot, but what gives them the right to build a pipeline on land that is not theirs nor that of the government? We have a choice to make, we either want to work with the people that were here before colonization or we don't and just take what we want by force. This mess has been created over the past 300 years, so it's going to take some time to try and get it straight. The difficulty now as opposed to 60 years ago is that the rest of the world is watching, so you can be sure that if we use the stick instead of a carrot there will still be consequences to pay.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: JBV

ah, the wisdom of professors. imagine how cool it would be to be a tenured prof and write this kind of shit and try and pass it off as intelligent, logic based argument. as soon as you read 'settler state' or 'colonists' written by a white person, or any person in this country, you know they're fucked, and hence we're fucked. and so we continue to track backwards in this country.

What makes you think the argument is shit? Why are using the words settler state or colonists so bad? 

Before answering this question it might be worth considering a hypothetical example first. It's 20 years into the future and climate change  has happened in a hurry and the US is suddenly in dire straights when it comes to water and arable land. Canada has been far less affected and the Us simply rolls in and takes over. They usurp our government and put their own in place. They enact their own laws, making our justice  null and void. They push us off the best land and take it for themselves. They deny us access to medical help and let disease spread. They take your children away to try and reeducate them into accepting their way of life. I could keep going but I think you get the point. What type of impact do you think this would have on the Canadian psyche? What would you call the US, an invading force, a colonizer? Until one starts to comprehend what happen to Indigenous peoples in this land after Europeans came here to settle this land and take it for their own, it's hard to appreciate the debt Canadian society owes. Now that doesn't mean that Indigenous peoples can't benefit in some way from things European culture brought here and developed here, but it definitely does not account for what European culture stole from Indigenous peoples who had been living here for millennia. Like it or not, we are responsible for taking the first steps in trying to bring some sort of balance back. One thing we cannot do however is right that wrong.

The strong have conquered the weak through out time. The colonization of America is just one example.

You can’t compare a project that is economically beneficial to many, including their own, to Putin looking to annex a nation. You’re not down on Commercial are you.

Posted by: FLATCH

You can’t compare a project that is economically beneficial to many, including their own, to Putin looking to annex a nation. You’re not down on Commercial are you.

It was an analogy, not a direct comparison. The point is whether you're okay with the idea of taking over another society or culture. Apparently part of the Canadian identity includes the concepts of equity and recognizing individual rights and freedoms. The funny thing about equity is that when you're the one who has to give something up, it suddenly doesn't seem very equitable. Like I said in that previous post I'm not arguing for giving the whole country away, but there needs to be a significant shift in our thinking on how we deal with Indigenous issues. A large part of that starts with understanding why so many Indigenous people are in dire circumstances. Learn our history, including the dirty parts. 

And no, I'm not down on Commercial or a dirty hippy or commie. I'm just someone who's done a little learning and tried to apply that in an ethical and logical manner in relation to Indigenous issues in this country.

Posted by: Stuminator

The strong have conquered the weak through out time. The colonization of America is just one example.

So you're saying we're no better now than 75 or 750 years ago? What happens if some bigger dude beats the fuck out of you and steals your wallet? Is that simply the strong conquering the weak?

Posted by: Stuminator

The strong have conquered the weak through out time. The colonization of America is just one example.

The colonization of Canada is next.