Cowspiracy

Guy named Malthus predicted this in the 18th century and, aside from the odd blip, he's been wrong. What makes you think you're right? Cutting the birth rate to below half replacement would be devistating, especially when stable countries like Canada scoop up all the educated productive people from less stable places.

you can't seriously be comparing 18th century lifestyles and resource use to what the world's current consumption patterns are?

I'm watching it now. The doc is meh, raises some good points, but I feel it's a bit off the mark. I'm impressed they showed the duck getting it head hacked off though.

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Had lamb for dinner last night, chicken the night before and steak the night before that. Love the lamb, it's just too expensive to eat very often.

When I lived in Oz around 1990, a recession and the collapse of wool prices led to ranchers culling their herds, eventually exterminating over 10 million sheep. They couldn't give the sheep away. They shot millions of sheep and bulldozed them into big holes in the ground. Lamb chops were going for about 25 cents a piece at the time. Mmmmmm ….

Guy named Malthus predicted this in the 18th century and, aside from the odd blip, he's been wrong. What makes you think you're right? Cutting the birth rate to below half replacement would be devistating, especially when stable countries like Canada scoop up all the educated productive people from less stable places.

I think this sums up my reaction to your comment.

you can't seriously be comparing 18th century lifestyles and resource use to what the world's current consumption patterns are?

But I will add my 2c…

Someone predicting the US housing bust for 2 years before it happened doesn't mean they were wrong for 1.95 years, it just means they were premature.

We are currently consuming resources at a rate of what 1.5 earths can provide. This can only go on for so long. We may be able to feed 20 billion people if we all live in a shoebox and eat liquid meals prepared by robots using resources found in recycled sewerage, but the earth as we know it won't last long with even 6 billion people living a current day western lifestyle. It's a mathematical impossibility. So we have 3 choices: a) drastically reduce our per capita consumption of just about everything from cheese to shock fluid (b) reduce our population willingly or (C) be forced in to submission of (a) and (b) unwillingly at an exponential rate once the ball starts rolling downhill. Devastation of the economy as we know it either way. We need a new system one way or another, since endless growth is impossible.

Wow, dude. Citation needed.

Your 'citation' is anecdotal, so here's a couple of my own.

I have a friend in Whistler who is 73 that kicks my ass skiing all day long as we hunt for powder on out of the way double blacks from lift open to lift close, then he pins it nonstop from peak to village. Then he goes to the gym and works out while I chill and have some beers. Then we have a big meaty meal with lots of wine, and then go out on the town til the bars close. He's never been a vegetarian and I've never seen him sober after 9pm. Fkn legend.

As a former vegan who used to go to dinners with the veg society to meet other like minded (fkn crazy) people, I met a lot of them. The only ones who were vegan were ones who only just started, and many of the rest were vegan at some point and told us it would probably not last long and they were right. And then once I ceased that lifestyle I've continued meeting people who used to be vegetarian over the 10 years hence. This is many multiples of times more people than I meet who are actually still vegan or vegetarian. Doesn't count as a citation I know, but living the lifestyle for as long as I did has given me insight that tourists are unlikely to have. Including the insight that says many people who claim to be vegetarian are full of shit. Oh yeah, I occasionally eat fish. And sometimes chicken. But not for a while. Like a month or something. It does show that for many people only occasionally eating meat can be plenty for staying healthy. Totally depends on your body and your output levels. It takes an accommodating body type and rather slow metabolism to maintain that for a lifetime when you're living an athletic lifestyle. It certainly can be done as a vegetarian, but it's extremely rare as a vegan.

How about that 30 bananas a day guy? Looks like his eyes are sucking into his skull and turning black in his later videos. My best guess looking at him is that he's not far off from either living a sub-optimal life or capitulating.

it's you're understanding of the data that's the issue. i believe when they say 45% is the land used for grazing/raising those animals, not that the animals themselves cover 45% of the earths surface. if you watched the flick or dug deeper into the stats you would get a clearer pciture.

Oh, I understood what the 'fact' was saying, the two examples presented still contradict eachother though.

Kram, I don't know why you became a vegan, but to many people it has nothing to do with diet, health or the ability to be able to do cartwheels when they are 95. As for crazy, I'm intrigued to know in what way? Did they just have a strong desire to not harm animals (or humans), or were they knitting hats from their own pubes?

Oh, I understood what the 'fact' was saying, the two examples presented still contradict eachother though.

ok fair enough. so i checked up on what you're talking about. the first quote that "Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land" was sourced from http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/News/2006/1000448/index.html and that article states that "Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth’s entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing."

the second quote, that "Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land" comes from https://cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/10601/IssueBrief3.pdf and states that "Livestock systems occupy 45% of the global surface area" which takes into account all area, including feed growing areas, use to raise livestock. the second reference for that point does not state that percentage specifically so it looks like the cospriacy people derived it from the data provided in some of the tables.

so while the facts as presented on the cowspiracy site do not 100% reflect their sources, they are not totally without merit. i would say that it is the second quote that is misleading as the authors of the source state that number to include all aspects of raising livestock whereas the cowspriacy site does not make that differentiation.

using that as the basis for not wathcing the movie and taking in what you may find to be interesting or debatable information seems a bit closed minded to me.

Kram, I don't know why you became a vegan, but to many people it has nothing to do with diet, health or the ability to be able to do cartwheels when they are 95. As for crazy, I'm intrigued to know in what way? Did they just have a strong desire to not harm animals (or humans), or were they knitting hats from their own pubes?

I was mostly being facetious and lumping myself in that category (but truth be known it's the total obsessiveness with food that's pervasive in that lifestyle that brings on the crazy). Your comment totally cracked me up though :)

I became vegan believing it was healthy and was greatly enjoying the benefits of reduced harm to animals and the environment. I influenced about 8 other people to make the same choice including my dad and stepmother. None of whom lasted more than a couple of years for similar reasons, except my parents who, I believe, maintain excellent health because they dabble in meat when they eat out with friends. A little can go a long way for many people. Unfortunately I had to make a hard decision (a decision that was at least 3 years overdue because it was that hard to make), and in the end my own well being trumped the other factors. So now I just stick my head in the sand and try not to think too much about it. With millions of people getting murdered over religion and all the other shit going on in the world, I'm not going to get overly hung up about whether or not I should put myself or the animals/environment first when it comes to diet. But I have identified that we are in the midst of a global population crises and have taken the greatest possible action to remedy the situation without actually killing myself or anyone else. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy enough, but I'm a hypocrite like virtually everyone else in the western world sitting at a computer.

I'm enjoying Netflix docs but recognize they need to be taken with a healthy dose of scepticism. The cow one is on the list, while "pump" was the one I just watched.

Generally, I find these movies informative but they all seem to get pretty 1-sided at the mid point.

I'm enjoying Netflix docs but recognize they need to be taken with a healthy dose of scepticism. The cow one is on the list, while "pump" was the one I just watched.

Generally, I find these movies informative but they all seem to get pretty 1-sided at the mid point.

yeah, pretty much any doc needs to be viewed with some skepticism, but i try to see them all as a potential gateway to info.

I think Kram has pretty well summed up my thoughts.

To discuss any global issue today is to ignore the gigantic elephant in the room - overpopulation.

There is literally not a single contentious issue out there that can't be tied back to there simply being too damn many of us, wanting too much of literally everything - down to the earthly basics of water and food.

Does that mean we shouldn't discuss the other components of our global problems? Absolutely not. But lets make it patently clear that the world will continue on long after we are gone.

And to say we are destroying the Earth, is largely inaccurate. We are destroying Earth as it relates in our ability to inhabit it.

If you think about it, we are pretty well closing the life circle in on our selves - it actually seems oddly fair.

1. I don't understand why the disaster that is global population gets as little attention as it does. I don't understand why people think having more than two children is acceptable.

2. I don't understand why so many people say negative things to me when I say my wife and I are not having kids, and tell us we are full of shit when we say the state of the world is a part of the reason we are not and tell us it's because we are selfish (of course we are, just like every other human being; there is no such thing as an unselfish act.)

1 - Its not so much people who think that, but I recently read that a countries population needs a birth rate of 2.7 (or 2.2+) children in order to continue to grow without relying on immigration to meet a countries future gdp needs.

2 - Shows the ignorance of A LOT of people. My best friend had kids in his mid 20s; we cant have meaningful conversations about the world because he has to put his blinders on and not think about it otherwise he'll wonder/worry about his kids future's. But he didnt worry about their future or even his own before he had kids. So selfless…

1 - Its not so much people who think that, but I recently read that a countries population needs a birth rate of 2.7 (or 2.2+) children in order to continue to grow without relying on immigration to meet a countries future gdp needs.

2 - Shows the ignorance of A LOT of people. My best friend had kids in his mid 20s; we cant have meaningful conversations about the world because he has to put his blinders on and not think about it otherwise he'll wonder/worry about his kids future's. But he didnt worry about their future or even his own before he had kids. So selfless…

This. I don't get it.

Lots of babies being made right now as millennial's are entering prime family forming years. For a group that is so focused on not repeating the mistakes of generations past, we are surprisingly close minded about the predicament we will leave our children in.

20 years and the most dire of global climate and inequality changes begin coming to fruition. Why would you want to doom your children to a life in that world?